Equine-librium, ft. Amanda Slugoski, M.A.

It's the human experience that we carry into the pen, and it's the human experience that the therapist is going to be noting upon looking pretty quickly and easily past the horse in the pen.

Welcome to therapy is my therapy, a podcast where licensed counselor Olivia and unlicensed client Tanya delve deep into real and raw conversations in order to demystify what really happens in that 50 minutes hour. Heads up. This podcast contains strong language and sensitive topics related to mental health.

Hey, everyone, it's Tanya. So equine therapy, does it involve horses laying on a couch, talking about their fear of intimacy? Or does a therapist throw you on top of a horse and ask you about your relationship with your mother? We wanted to know, so we contacted Amanda Sligosky. She is a registered psychologist and founder of Equinox Therapeutic, which provides both traditional and equine assisted therapy to patients. Amanda got into what equine therapy is, how it can bypass a lot of the hurdles that traditional therapists can face, such as the challenge of getting patients to open up, and how equine assisted therapy can act as a trojan horse of sorts for healing. Enjoy the episode. So today on therapy is my therapy, we've got Amanda Slakowski.

If I pronounced that properly, very well, like 95% perfect.

She's here today to talk about animal assisted therapy, and in particular, just equine therapy, I believe it's called.

Yeah, horses.

Horses.

Horses can be an easy way, but technically, equines can cover horses and donkeys, and certainly I have used donkeys in the works, so that's where equine can be a better umbrella term.

Amanda, if you want to just give us a rundown of your background and yeah, let us know who you are.

I am a registered psychologist in Alberta, Canada, and I've been practicing equine assisted therapy, or equine assisted mental health in various ways since about 2001. And then as a registered psych just in the last 1112 years or so. I have a private practice. We specialize in complex trauma and addiction, and we do office based therapy as well as equine assisted psychotherapy. So two different modalities. And my background is with the equine bit, and the animal bit is pretty diverse. So I've done a whole bunch of things ranging from working, bringing equine assistive therapy to an eating disorder treatment center and inpatient models, so working specifically with adults with anorexia and bulimia, to co founding an animal assisted residential treatment center down in Arizona where we were working with adults with developmental disabilities who had been in contact often with the legal system. I worked for a while teaching other professions, so other health professions, physical therapists and occupational therapists, recreational therapists, even teachers, how to incorporate animals into their work doing animal assisted therapy. So I did that for a while. I worked for a while developing a and then supporting a program for at risk youth, indigenous at risk youth who had some gang involvement or at risk of gang INvOlvemENT. And we were doing AnImal Signature therapy with a wide range of AnImals ThEre. Chickens, wild turkeys, llamas, horses, donkeys, cats, dogs, ALl sorts of species there. So those are some of the things that I've done with Animal assisted Therapy.

That's such a wide range. I think of things that you've worked with. It's really cool. And I'm just curious how you got into in General, like, what made you drawn to do AnImal assisted therapy? What made you really decide to kind of go that route?

So for me, it was the horses. I was raised on a Farm in Alberta, Canada, and there are pictures of me in my mother's tummy on a horse, you know, she's riding. And so I was just so fortunate to be born into a Family that had horses. So they were my Love. I did four h at the age of six, and I did pony Club at the age of eight and just kept going. I was just really, really into horses. They were my thing. So that's one part of it. And then the other part is I was in School, of Course, in public schooling. I think it was about grade eight or so. So this is in the mid nineties. We had this course called calm. I don't know if you all have it in the states, but career and life management, where you start to think about what do you want to do when you grow up and what would it look like to have a career? And there were some self assessments and it came up that I should be a psychologist or a lawyer. This is my aptitude. Pointed that direction. So I went home and I thought, okay, I'm going to be a psychologist or a lawyer, and that's just what it's going to be. And simultaneously, everything kind of converged, right? So I'm this horse crazy kid. I decide I'm going to be a psychologist or a lawyer because that's what calm course told me. And then there was a funeral of a distant relative. That didn't impact me personally, but I had to go because that's what you do when you're a kid. You just follow your family, right? And there was a distant cousin who showed up, and he was a social worker, so we're doing the family chit chat thing. Haven't seen him probably since I was about six, right. And he comes over to me and he says, you're one of the Slugosky girls, right? Yeah, I'm the youngest. So I says, what do you want to be when you grow up? And of course, I just decided I'm going to be a psychologist or a lawyer. So I produced that for him. He said, okay, psycho lawyer. And you're the horse one, right? You're involved in the horses? I said, yeah. And he said, oh, did you hear there's this brand new field called equine assisted psychotherapy? And of course, I hadn't heard of it. And this was. The Internet had like, just started, like yesterday, right. So I went home and I went on dial up, right? You listen to the sound. And I googled, or whatever was the search engine back then, equant assisted psychotherapy. And something came up, I think, like one page came up. And so I decided that it was going to be an equant assisted psychotherapist. And from that moment on, that's what I worked towards. And at the time when I graduated school, there were two schools in the world that would support that degree, and one was in Arizona and one was in Israel, and it was the early two thousands. So making the decision to go to Arizona over Israel was pretty easy. And I applied and I didn't look anywhere else and I didn't apply anywhere else, and I just went for it. And the rest kind of is history. So I became a self fulfilling prophecy, if you will. So that's how I got into it. And then once I had decided that, I started to create and look for opportunities to be in the field, there was one woman who was already doing it in my area, and so I started to volunteer for her. That's where I did the gang involved youth because she specialized in working with children there. So I got my feet wetland. I. I was her horse handler at the time because of all of my equine skills and not. Yeah, I was just a high school kid. Right. So I got exposed to that. And then, yeah, I moved down to Arizona, did my masters in counseling psychology with a specialization in equine assisted mental health. And the rest. Yeah, and the rest kind of unfolded, so I just kept going from there.

Wow, that's so cool that it, like.

Funneled that way so well, yeah, I feel very fortunate. It was a really direct. It was a really direct route for me, which let me do a lot of things very young and just get really focused and straight through. And on one side of the coin, I possibly missed a lot of opportunities because I didn't do that exploration that a lot of grads do. And on the other hand, I got to do so much. I have, I've done so much in this field and just being really focused, I think let me get exposure to a really wide variety of experiences.

That's really cool and also definitely bringing back the nostalgia in regards to dial up. So did you have any preconceived notions about what therapy was? And I was going to ask in regards to equine therapy, but because it was so new, there probably weren't any. So I would love to hear just more what your thoughts on what therapy would be like and what you actually experienced.

Yeah, for sure. To your kind of middle question there, it was so new and it still is. It still is, you know, significantly in North America anyways, I suspect also elsewhere in the world, but I don't know that for certain. It's not standardized. So CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy is standardized. If you go to a CBT therapist, you know what you're going to get. You can google that. There's basics, there's foundation in equine therapy because it is still so new. It's not standardized. The way that I do equine therapy and the way that I teach equine therapy is going to be wildly different. Like wildly different than how any gala trained therapist, which is a really common model in America, does therapy. It will look different, it will feel different, it will sound different, it will not be at all the same. So no preconceived notions, which can be a bit scary, I would imagine, as a client coming in. So, you know, Tanya, if you're going into therapy and you're going to do CBT, you can google it and you can be like, there's going to be worksheets and we're going to work with my thoughts and equine therapy, it's so individual. We are, let me say this gently, because some colleagues may object to this, but we are making this up. We are still making this up. And hopefully we're doing it thoughtfully and mindfully and with evidence and really ethically and checking in with clients and all of that. We are still really making this up because it's so new. So forget preconceived notions. Nope, not none of those. And your second question, was it, did I get you right? Was it like, what does it look like? So given that I can't tell you what it looks like, what does it look like? Is that where you're going?

Yeah. I think in regards to maybe shortly before you went to school, did you have an idea as to what therapy looked like? Because I know Olivia has discussed about it. You know, before she went to grad school, she had a notion and I'd be very curious to hear that too, from another mental health professional.

Yeah, what an interesting question. You know, grad school was a really long time ago. I don't think that I have a clear answer on what I thought it would be. I think I was just like very young, very open, and just looking to all of my mentors in the field to teach me what it should be. And so the learning for me wasn't actually replacing it with preconceived notion or confirming it. It was realizing that we are all just making this up, that there isn't actually any one way. And that was intimidating as a young practitioner because again, I'll compare it to CBT. If you're young and learning CBT, you do know what it should look like and then it more or less will fit that. And as a young equinist therapist, there wasn't that. So there was this moment of fear. These moments of fear, for sure, as a practitioner where I'm going, oh my gosh, I am making this up. Imagine having that on top of the fraud complex that all of us therapists have for the first 20 years of our career, probably right. Am I doing this right? When there are guidelines to follow, there are principles to follow, but there is no one way it's supposed to look. So my learning was in that fear and in that space of, there isn't any one way this should look like. Does that make sense?

Yeah, that made perfect sense. And it's really interesting to hear about your journey because you were exploring such a new field where, say, Olivia works with a supervisor. They have a set structure, but when it comes to yours, your supervisor was also just exploring what can and can't be done and what just exploring the field and making it up, so to speak.

Making it up. Right. I'll put that in quotes because we're drawing from experience and we're maintaining our ethics, but yeah. And so at best, what my instructors were doing and what we are still doing in the field. So I have a training in May and I put on a big training kind of once a year. So I am now a trainer and I'm doing the exact same thing as my instructors were back then, which is to say, this is how I do it. This is what works for me. This is what it looks like. If you were to follow my model and if you go to, you know, another practitioner who's doing a training down the road, and there are many. Cause we're all teaching people in our style because that's all we can do, it's going to look real different. And if you go down to gala, it's going to look real different. And if you do the pro EFT model, it's going to look real different. So I can teach you my way, but I cannot teach you the way and different than CBT. We can learn the way to do CBT or EMDR or the standardized protocols. I can tell you what it looks like when I do it. But if one of your listeners were to go to an equal anesthesia psychotherapist and be like, I heard this on the podcast, so it's going to look like this. It may not.

No. That's really important for the listeners to know, especially when they go and Google and have an expectation as to what equine therapy can look like. If you want to describe about equine therapy and generally how it functions, just so the listeners can have an idea.

For sure, I can describe how it functions and what it looks like when I do it. I could describe how some other people's models work as well. But so before I do, I would say if you do have listeners that want to know that, and they're like, this Amanda person is not being helpful for me, knowing what exactly to expect. Email or call, figure out who you want to do this with, find a person. And then a really good question is, can you describe what a first session with you will feel like or second session? First session is going to be paperwork and goal setting and things like that. But what will it look like with you? Which is not a question that we would ask of a CBT therapist. So what does a typical session look like with you will be a good question for your listeners. But yeah, totally my model. Super fun. I love it so much. I'm obviously very biased. So we will meet out in a natural setting. So we have a few facilities that we work with. But let's say we go to the farm. So we'll meet out at the farm. You'll drive up and you'll be met by some dogs, and I'll give you a heads up. There'll be dogs on the property. So we know if that's, if that's an issue or not. But puppies will come and greet you. Probably a kitty will come out. I'll be there in a baseball cap and a t shirt and looking very non formal. I'll be like, hey, how was your drive? Right? And so we check in and we say hi to all the puppies and we do all the thing. And our session is starting. So this is already different than walking and removing your shoes, getting a glass of water and sitting down. Right. It feels different. The sun is there, it's raining, the clouds, whatever. We're in the real environment together, right? So then we'll amble over to the fence, probably, and we'll lean on it for a little while, looking out at the herd. And so the way that I do this, the horses are at liberty. So what that means is they're not caught. They're not on a halter or a lead rope. They're just hanging out in a field. In Alberta, we have lots of grass, so they're just grazing, being horses. And so we'll lean for a little while on the fence post and we'll check in. So assuming this isn't a first session, but I've seen you for a while, how's it going? How's your week? Is there anything that you want me to know? How's the homework from last time? You know, how are you feeling today? So the therapy questions come up. We check in. If something is really relevant that wants to be sat with for a while, we'll just hang out at the fence posts looking at the horses. At some point in time, I'll say something like, how do you feel about moving in with them? Or do you want to move in with them today? Or what comes up for you right now about the thought of moving in? So something to be curious about, that thought of bridging the gap between us and the horses. So we check in. What does that feel like? For some clients, they say, yeah, I'm ready, let's go. Right. So then we just go for other people. And Tanya, I'm watching your face here. As you're visualizing this for other people, they might be less enthusiastic about it and they might have some hesitation. And so if you say, well, a part of me really wants to go, but a part of me isn't sure yet, as the therapist, we're going to sit with that. Okay, what does that feel like to be uncertain? How do you want to be with that? What do you want to do? Do you want to just push through that? Should we ignore the hesitation? Do you want to sit and respect that hesitation. Is there something that you need? And, of course, I'm not rapid firing so many questions. You're getting a space to respond, and we sit with that. So we're doing therapy now, right. The horses are still out in the field, but you're at the fence post in your body, noticing that there may be as a conflict, which is going to be an awful lot like everything else in your life when a conflict comes up. So we get to work with this real time. And as the therapist, I could take it any number of places. I'll fast forward through that. Okay, so you decide. I want to move in. So we're going to do some deep breathing, and we're going to get brave, and we're going to move in. And whatever access skills that we've previously learned, we move in with the horses. And I'll just give you one more example here. We move in with the horses, and we'll check in with the herd is a common. So let's just go check in. Let's say. Let's say hi to them. And so you will, with or without my support, just depending on your level of comfort and how many times you've been with the horses before, you'll go out and you'll check in with Allie Cat and see how she is, and then you'll go to cotton, and then you'll go to Ben, you'll check in with the three, and then you'll come back to me, I'll say, hey, how was that? What came up? And you'll tell me that cotton is really standoffish today, and she wanted nothing to do with you. And I'll say, oh, yeah, I saw her walk right away from you. Hey, what was that like for you, Tanya? And you'll say, wow, I felt so rejected. And she is such a little sneaky. Not today. And, oh, did I tell you that my mother didn't return my phone call? And we are in the feelings, and we're in the body, and so we're doing. We're using the horses as projective material you're projecting onto them. They're a safe way to talk about rejection. It comes up naturally. I didn't say, tanya, let's talk about your feelings of rejection today. I said, go check in with the horses. And it naturally comes up. And so we get to sit in that space of processing and kind of track with it wherever it ends up going and where we choose to follow it. Having this material elicited in real life, I'll pause and let you speak. Does that give you some sense of it?

So I have done equine therapy from the point of view of kind of similar to you. When I was an intern, I was assisting a clinician who did a group for kids who'd experienced gun violence and gang violence. Basically, each week was like a different kind of modality. So I've seen it from that point of view. I think that's something that's really common throughout a lot of different modalities, especially ones that don't just involve talking. They will show you what they need rather than you having to pull it out of them. Like, I see it a lot with kids when you're doing play therapy or, like, they're doing the sand tray or like, all these different things where you see them processing experiences in a way that if you had just asked them outright about it, they probably wouldn't have known or felt comfortable to provide the information. So it makes a lot of sense to me that that's how it works, because I feel like that's why it's so helpful to have non talk modalities of, like, you're allowing people to work through the literal thing with your guidance. I'm interested to hear how it goes throughout different people's, like you said, way of doing it, because the way that I saw it was more that the horses were, like, led, and it was interesting to see that. But they had, like, it was kind of both. They had, I think, maybe one or two who were in that setting, and then they had the other ones who were just kind of out. And so they allowed the kids to interact with both. And it was interesting to see the different ways that that showed up. It's such like a thing that I think people. Not in the field, it's mind blowing, but, like, in the field, I'm like, well, yeah, that makes total sense because that's how it happens. It's not the way people think of. It's just like, I ask you this question about how your mom makes you feel, and you tell me, and then you're healed. It's really more experiencing the change happening and having someone who is able to remain steady and modeling it for you.

Yeah, it's experiential, right? Like, it's just such a good word to describe many modalities of therapy, but animal therapy is certainly one of them. You're experiencing it in your body. And so that does a couple of things. One is as long as you have a therapist there who can kind of watch and be skilled enough to notice that you're experiencing it. We get to slow things down. And so in the example I gave with you, Tanya, at the fence, in your daily life, you go through, we all go through minor conflicts. Should I or shouldn't I? Hundreds of times a day probably, or at least 100 times a day. Should I or shouldn't I return this email? Should I, shouldn't I use this tone? How should I, how should I be? This is a big question in our life. What is the appropriate way to be that respects society and also myself? And we go through it real fast because we have to, because we're productive human beings. And in equine therapy, we get a chance to see these conflicts. We, the therapist, get a chance to see them and to slow it down and to kind of hold that space. What's happening right now as you think about approaching that 1600 pound horse? What's happening right now as you just came back from checking in with a horse who kind of blew right through your boundaries and you had to step out of their way? What is happening right now? Let's stop and slow. And invariably, whatever comes up is something that's transferable. It's not unique to being out with a horse. It is elicited by being out with a horse. But the question could be as simple as this right now. This feeling of standing at the fence, not knowing if you want to go in or not, or this feeling of the horse walking away from you or walking in your space or whatever. What does it remind you of? When is another time you felt this feeling? And so it's the human experience that we carry into the pen, and it's the human experience that the therapist is going to be noting upon looking pretty quickly and easily past the horse in the pen. And that's what we're working with in ways that we wouldn't even have known to direct the client to if we were just sitting in the office because they've maybe never brought it up. But if it's the first thing and the second thing and the third thing that comes up with the client consistently in this novel stimuli, this novel context, when they don't know how they're supposed to react, we don't have the social programming for what to do when a 1600 pound horse gets in your space. Right? Tanya doesn't know how to react, so she's going to react in whatever is her and default. And we know her default was laid there because of her childhood, her adolescence, the way that authority figures have responded, the way that conflict has been for her. So we're going to get to see her default reactions and work with that and check in. Does that serve you? Is this how you want to be? Does that still earn its keep in your present day? And if not, well, guess what? That 1600 pound horse is going to get in your boundaries all day long. So we get this opportunity to practice being a different way or creating a different neural network in a safe environment.

That was amazing. I was getting lost in your beautiful descriptions of just this experience. And thinking back to, yeah, one of my preconceived notions about equine therapy, and maybe because I'm a very literal person, is they just throw you up on top of a horse and then ask you about your mom. Like you said, a 1600 pound animal barreling at me will make me feel all sorts of things. So there's this inherent, disarming nature of animal assisted therapy. The research I was doing, that kind of seems to be the common theme, is that the presence of an animal takes that person off of their guard, because one article in psychology today, it resonated with me because they had this person working with a dog, and I, this kid had seen six therapists at that time with a lot of behavioral issues, really, really rough home life, and they've been through so many therapists, and they already have attachment issues when it comes to adults and trusting adults. And when they approached this new therapist, the kid was like, what have you got to offer me? And by deflecting the conversation to the dog, it led to some really interesting insights that happened just by the kid pointing out, oh, I wish I had a safe space like that blanket, you know, that the dog can go lay down on when it's overwhelmed. And by taking the focus off of the client, I imagine that does open things up. And I would love for you to get more into the Trojan horse idea of working on skills and sitting with feelings in that space.

Yeah. What you're speaking to there, if I just really broad stroke it is rapporte, or that's a big part of what you're speaking to, which is our relationship with the client, the client's relationship with us. What does it feel like? And from a really very objective, cold perspective, how quickly can we develop rapport in order to do some hard work, if that's what's needed? And my unique experience is that rapport when I'm out with the horses happens a lot more quickly then report in the office. That has been uniformly my experience. And so even when I first described that bit of a first session, you know, you pull up and I'm in blue jeans and sneakers and a t shirt and sunscreen and bug spray. And right away that power dynamic that we are always so aware of and we're always trying to, in modern psychology, really reduce that power dynamic. We are not the on you. You are the expert on you. And we want to be your ally. This is the current paradigm, which is different than eighties and the seventies when we were the quote unquote experts. So we're like, no power dynamic. We're good. We're cool. But it's one thing to say that and as I'm running informed consent with you and telling you about my fees and my cancellation policy and then to say, but I'm just your pal here, let's figure this thing out together. And for us to be like kicking around in the, in the shit, we're just dirty together and there's horses and all sorts of stuff feels different. It feels different. And then the other piece you're speaking to is kind of direction. I think you're using the word deflection of that direct attention. Right. Hi, Tanya. I'm your psychologist today. What do you want to talk about that's going to feel different than, hey, Tanya, let's go look at the horses. Oh my gosh. Do you see what they're doing right now? That's crazy. Wow, look at that. Oh, what a crazy horse. Right? And so, and so we're talking about the horses or the dogs or the wind or the cat that just scrambled up onto the top of your car or whatever. And the direction of that exquisite focus of attention is different. Although in the background we're in therapy and I am watching you and I'm aware of your micro muscles. I'm training complex trauma. So I watch micro muscles a lot and I can see when that cat climbs up, you know, are you, are you bracing? Are you in a fear response? What has happened to, and I get to use that as therapeutic material potentially. But it doesn't feel like the laser spotlight is on you because we're just hanging around looking at horses and doing herd projection, which is probably a lot like the dog in your story, doing herd projection exercises is it just happens naturally. So it's like, hey, I mean, I don't even have to elicit it, it's so natural. But we'll be looking at the herd and you'll say something like, oh, that one looks really thirsty. Or, oh, look, they're, they're grooming each other. Isn't that sweet? Just like the little boy said, oh, that dog has a really nice blanket. I wish I had a blanket like that. I wish I had someone to groom me like that. Oh, wow, the horses are really enjoying themselves today. And all that freedom. Ugh. I wish I had freedom like that. So the projection just happens naturally because we are meaning making creatures. We see things that are ambiguous stimuli, so it's not necessarily good or bad. Horses are grooming each other. It's not good or bad. It just is. But because we're meaning making creatures, you're going to make some meaning out of it. That looks so nice. I wish my sister was like that with me. Or if you have a PTSD symptoms going on, or you come from complex trauma, you come from conflict, you're actually going to see that. Ambiguous stimuli probably as negative. They're biting each other, they're fighting with each other. Oh, they must be doing that because they've got bugs all over each other. They must be uncomfortable. And so the therapist gets to see what this projective material gets. A peek into the client's world. Your client with the dog, or your story about the kid with the dog. We instantly know that child is lacking comfort, they're lacking nurturing. They wish that they had more security. So we know so much just because they're talking about the dog. And the second my client projects anything onto the horse, I know that they're giving me a peek into their default settings. So we call it kind of animal. You'll see animal assisted social lubrication. It's a weird word, but you'll find that it's a social lubricant. It helps facilitate the relationship because there's.

An animal present that's amazing. And it also reminds me as to how my enjoyment and the speed at which I ease into, say, a house party. It increases when there's a dog present just because I feel way more chill and I can focus on something else when it's too overwhelming.

There's a general instinct when you're in a doctor's office or any type of healthcare setting where you're the client or the patient, there's this sense of, I have to act put together, or I have to be a good patient or a good client. And a lot of times it takes clients so long to open up or to really show how they're feeling, because I think it's so expected that when someone asks, how are you? You just say, I'm good. How are you? And, like, it. It takes so much to get them out of that, like, social nicety and be able to just be and say how they're feeling, that when you take them out into an environment, whether it's playing a game with them or having them around animals or doing eco therapy, where you have them out in nature, you strip down that sense of, okay, I don't have to be a certain way because I'm just out in the world or I'm just doing a normal thing with this person where they don't feel like a doctor or a therapist, like, they just feel like another person. That it. In my experience, when doing those kinds of modalities, it really allows for more. Just like, freedom of expression earlier on, of like, everyone is going to be a little suspect of, that's a huge animal. If I haven't been around them before, like, I'm probably going to be scared or I'm not going to know how to respond. Rather than like, if you ask a client in session, like, oh, how do you feel around horses? They might just say, oh, yeah, they're fine, or I like them, or I don't like them, or whatever, but you're only going to get a sentence where when you're out with them, I imagine you're getting the true feeling. You're actually watching them experience it. And I think also, to your point of, like, using them as almost the metaphor for other things that they experience in life, I see so many clients who, when they come in, they want me to fix it for them, or they're like, why can't this person in my life change? Or why can't I just have this issue go away? That when you have them in front of a 1600 pound animal, it's like, you can't make that problem go away. We have to find a way to manage this because that's not moving unless it wants to move that. I think I can see how that would be really useful, too, of, like, being able to work out in session that process of like, okay, if I can't move the obstacle, like, how do I, how do I navigate and how do I maybe change my mindset towards it that, like, the horse is not trying to harm me by being there, it just has its own existence.

Absolutely. Yeah. And the idea that this being so, especially at liberty where the horses are not on lead and they are screened therapy horses, but they are not obedient show horses, if you will, because that would make for terrible therapy, I reckon. So they're out there and, yeah, the horse, they won't move, or more likely, they won't participate in your agenda unless for some reason, they happen to have the same agenda, but it's pretty rare. So, yeah, what do we do? And such a common equine therapy question for me is, how do you want to be with this? So given that you have an agenda and this other being doesn't have your agenda, how do you want to be with this? And there's a million different ways that you can be with any quote unquote problem. And to practice being eleven different ways in one therapy session in your body and see how it feels gives a lot of empowerment and choice. Right. Well, I want to change my task. I want to get the horse to the water. But the horse doesn't want to go to the water. Okay, how do you want to be with that? Well, I want to say, forget it, that's too hard. And go pick a horse that's closer to the water. Cool. That's power. We can choose to change tasks. We can choose to change our mind. Let's try that. Forget this horse. Let's go to that one that's closer to the water. How did that feel in your body? Oh, it felt like. It felt like you were letting yourself down. You feel disappointed? Hmm. Okay, you want to. Let's try it different. Let's go back to the horse. How does it feel now that we're back at this harder challenge? Horse? It feels. It feels. It feels more right. Even though I still don't know what to do, we're still not going to get. I don't, but it feels more in line with my integrity. Okay, cool. Let's notice that in our body. What do you want to do now? Oh, you want to. You want to ask for help? You want to get a tool? Okay, cool. Let's try that. What does that feel like? And so you get to try all these different ways of being with a quote unquote problem that, yeah, as you point out, you know, Olivia is not going anywhere, just hanging out. So it's so experiential, so good for nervous system re patterning. Yeah. Very different than talk therapy. And they all have their advantages. Right, but it's very different.

Yeah. And it's something that I think the field as a whole, at least in my experience, has been realizing that a lot, that talk therapy can be really great, but it often needs something to supplement it with because people are getting stuck in the like, okay, I'm talking this through. But now I don't know how to implement it without the support of the therapist, and they don't have that throughout the week. But I think having clients be able to have more experiential things where it's like, okay, we're getting your nervous system involved. We're really, truly, like, trying these things out and practicing and letting you experience it in a way that I don't think always comes across when it's just talking and not that, like, you can't be learning skills anyway and having, like, homework and things throughout the week. But I think there's just something about that experiential nature of it that it makes sense to me why there's so many of those modalities that are becoming more popular now.

Yeah, agreed. And with the talking, some people, a lot of people that I work with, and right now I'm thinking a lot about veterans. I work a lot with first responders and veterans in particular, who, I mean, they're very obviously very intelligent human beings and they know the thing. So, for example, they know that not everyone has their agenda, and it's not always going to work out in their favor. They know it, but they can't unhinge their nervous system or detach their nervous system from this life or death training, that things should go a certain way, because if they're overseas, if they're infield and things aren't going the way that they should go, people could be dying. If they screw up or their comrade screws up, this could be life or death. And so this has been drilled into them, literally. And the real life consequences of this have happened. And so now they come back and they're veterans and they're released, and they know that they're back, and they know that it shouldn't be a big deal when their kid doesn't close the screen door or when their wife forgets to call the plumber or they get cut off in traffic. Okay, we got it. It's not a big deal. But their nervous system is flaring zero to 100 anyway because something went wrong. It didn't go according to plan. And so that's a full limbic system response, and it's not okay. And they're in fight and flight and they're freaking out and they're having road rage and they're yelling at their wife and their kids are crying. And everything as bad as happening because of their reaction, which they come by it honestly through training and through experience and out in the real world, when that happens, they're either shutting down, walking away, or more likely, blowing up. Everything goes real fast, zero to 100, and then they blink and the kids are off screaming and their wife is threatening a divorce, and they're like, getting into a fistfight. It just happens so fast. Right. But out with the horses. We take a veteran who's trying to lead the horse to water, and the horse is like, oh, forget you. Right? And they're about, well, they can't explode because they know if they explode with the horse, that the horse is going to explode, and that's not helpful. And they can't just shut down and go home. I mean, they could, but they're very motivated to be here. So they have to stay in this situation with their broiling nervous system, and I'm there hanging out, coaching them through it, and they're there. Or, sorry, the horse is there, being very parasympathetic, probably, and the sun is shining and nothing bad that is happening. And so they get to re pattern where we're untraining, or retraining, more accurately, those trained responses from the military and from their military experiences, that something going wrong equals danger, fight, flight. I don't even know where that story just came from. I don't know if that was related. I just. That just happened.

I love it. I love how things are just happening, actually, the fun. Well, my point is, actually, I don't. And what you just described with the veteran, I have suppose it's complex PTSD. It's not an official thing, from what I gather, but I have that in my life. And my ability to tolerate the volatility and imperfection of life, especially in the beginning of therapy, was at, like -20 million. I had to be a certain way, do certain things, or else things got very dangerous for me. And one of the goals in therapy that I've been working on is to accept that life is gonna life. The horse is gonna horse. And I found it really interesting that you're in the moment learning to do and build these skills and rewire these neurons with guidance and with a. I'm gonna call it a demand, quote, unquote. That is the horse. There's a situation that's happening in real time, and it's safe because the horse doesn't have a gun. It's not gonna do anything too weird. It's chilling out. And, yeah, you're in a situation where the demand is safe enough and it's novel enough, because from what I've been researching and the things you've talked about previously, it's about relationship, and it's very hard to rewire those things when it's so emotionally close, like building these skills with a horse. It's just less intense for me than, say, bringing my mom into therapy and working on relating to her differently and practicing these skills. I didn't really have a point, but the things you had said were just so fascinating in regards to. Yeah, just doing it on the fly with. With the guidance. I kind of. I wish I had my therapist with every interaction that I have outside of the session, but unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.

Exactly. Exactly what you're saying. I agree with, and I've seen that as well, and I experienced that as well. I want to also just say something. Tanya, you said CPTSD isn't really a real thing, and you kind of did that when you said it is a real thing. From my mouth to your ears, it is a real thing. It's not recognized by the DSM. However, only two countries in the world really pay attention to the DSM, and it happens to be where you live and where I live. America and Canada. But the whole rest of the world follows the ICD. And the ICD has a diagnosis called complex PTSD, and it has a diagnostic code, and they've had it for a long time. And it is a real thing. And you are valid and complex. PTSD is valid and is recognized everywhere in the world. And even I don't know how America does it, but even up in Canada, when we give us complex trauma therapists, let me speak for us all. When I give a PTSD diagnosis, if that person also meets a CPTSD diagnosis, I will put in brackets the ICD code and recognize that it is CPTSD. So that's a total aside. It's real, my friend, and you are valid, and your symptoms are valid and recognized.

Hey, everyone, it's Tanya. So I wanted to take a second to interrupt this podcast. Amanda wanted you to know that a more accurate version of this statement is that the DSM is typically considered the primary diagnostic tool by Canada and the USA, whereas the ICD is typically considered to be the primary diagnostic tool elsewhere in the world. Now back to the podcast to that.

It feels less intense than if my mother were there. And you're saying that even as someone who's already expressed that horses feel intense to you and you have some trepidation around that, right? And you can already tell the horses might feel safer than your mother? Actual or fabricated in this story? Yes. A million times over. Yes. And to sweeten that deal, if it even needed sweetening before you're doing mother work with the horses, you would be establishing a relationship with the horses so that you would feel that they're non judgmental. You would feel that they're steady. You would feel that they're parasympathetic, that they live their life generally parasympathetically. Unless there's a tiger that jumps out of the trees. They're chill, exactly as you said. They're just chilling. So you would have that grounding foundation, which is going to help regulate you and bring you into a parasympathetic space also. So, yes, you're feeling safe, you're feeling calm, you're feeling unconditional. You're not feeling judged. There's no personalization that's happening potentially. I mean, there could be with projection, but you know that the horse is just horsing, as one of you said earlier. Right. Then we bring in the mother piece, and you get a chance to practice how you want to be with mom or have that. Have that therapeutic processing piece while your nervous system is within the window of tolerance, something that you maybe have heard of, right, so it's not hyper aroused, mummies and staring at you saying, well, you did everything wrong. There's just a horse that's munching grass. And so you get to practice having this one. Might even use the word dual awareness. If I pull a bit from some trauma processing language. You're chilling with the horse, and it's a Wednesday, and it's okay, and nothing bad is happening. And we're working with this high arousal stimuli of momentous while you're chilling with the horse. Then it's a Wednesday while we're working with this high rise with stimuli, so you don't get flooded. And when we're not flooded, you can use different parts of your brain. You have access to different parts of your brain. I have a. I am not with horses every day of my life at all. I wish I was, but I'm not right now. But I have, like, a horse pen in my mind. I carry, like, a herd of horses with me wherever I go. And when I have a conflict in my life that I feel so charged about, that I'm just stuck, you know, like, I have a family dynamic going on, and I feel very hurt by something. And so I said to my family members, I feel really hurt by this, and there's just defensiveness on their end. And all I want is to be acknowledged. Can you acknowledge that I shared with you that I'm hurt? That's all I want to be heard, right. And it's just not happening right now. The horse is not going to the water that I want it to go to. And I feel stuck because this is my family, and I feel so charged about it, and I'm like, oh, I'm gonna never talk to them again, or I'm gonna drag them all into therapy, or I have all these, like, ideas that are insane and won't work, and I can't think around it. And so I access the horses in my mind. I go there, and I imagine that I'm trying to take the horse to water, and they're not going. And that's fair. That's right. Because they have a right to not go. And as soon as I see that it's a horse, I go, oh, yeah, that's just my agenda. It's not what's right. But when I'm thinking about my family, all I can think about is how. It's how I'm right, right. So I get all this charge. I'm out of my window of tolerance. I go to the horses physically or just the pen in my mind, and I can see things differently. I can access different parts of my brain. I ultimately arrive at one of my favorite questions, okay, how do I want to be with that? Of course, isn't doing what I think should be done. I feel so wounded by this. But then again, if it's a horse, it's not personal. They're on their own horse journey. Oh, okay. That's fair, right? It's depersonalized, and I eventually am able to use more of my brain, arrive at, you know, my current chosen solution, which is I want to be. I want to be persistent. I don't want to lose my self esteem in this. I want to show up. I want to just quietly and repeatedly, over time, say, hey, there's water there. I'm gonna go. Are you? Would you be interested in going with me? And I can keep my humor, and I can keep my balance, and I'm not gonna lose sleep over it because they may or may not come, but it's not about me. Right? The horse doesn't have an agenda to hurt me. The horse just has their own agenda, and it's not about me. And same goes for my family. They've got their own stuff. It's not about me. And it lets me see a different way that I can show up and keep my balance with this quote, unquote, problem.

From what I was looking at in terms of your interviews online, you had mentioned a lot of the sessions start on the ground. Right. With the horse. I was wondering as to why you chose that path and what the benefits of not just putting them on top of a horse immediately are.

Yeah, yeah. Such a huge, huge, huge question, or really, really important question. All of our sessions start on the ground. Fact. All of our sessions, period, stay on the ground. At this point in time, about six, maybe that changed about six years ago. Before that, sometimes a client would eventually progress to being on a horse bareback, but even that was pretty rare. I would say under, under 10% of sessions would wind up there. And so the reason for that, or my rationale for that, is because it is about relationship. And to all of the spaces and places in developing relationship with a new being, in this case, the horse that happened before, you are in a dominant position over them. And remember, they are prey and we are predator. And so that's a whole dynamic unto itself. What it is to mount a prey animal and what that feels like so many places before that moment in time happens, that relationship is happening, and that's where the therapeutic material is, or the therapeutic material is in all those spaces and places. So there's just no reason for us to skip all of the relationship development, go straight to what could be a pretty triggering, very strong power dynamic when the goal isn't to ride a horse. If you want to ride a horse, go take riding lessons. The goal is to work through your stuff, what you're coming to therapy for, and we can do all of that from the moment you step out of the car and the cat runs up to you. So there's just no reason to skip all of the rich therapeutic material that comes in developing the relationship with the horse. So that's one reason why, another reason why is out of respect and honoring for the horse as a being, who, to my view, gets to consent to this relationship and gets an equal say in different words, in a different language to whether or not how they want to show up and how they want to participate. So we're not just going to put our agenda, we want to ride the horse on them. We're going to figure out what is the horse's agenda, and we get to work with that. And that may mean that frustration comes up and our agendas get stymied. As we've talked about a couple times already in this podcast, what is that like when the agenda gets stymied and what comes up and what does that remind you of? And how is that an awful lot like what's going on with your mother and how do you want to beat blah, blah, blah. So the therapy isn't in the riding of the horse. The therapy is in the relationship with the horse. And then the third thing, which is the least romantic bit of it all, is that mounting a horse is a greater liability. It's a greater risk to self. And our insurance companies, actually, they were the ones who ultimately said, you know, if you want to keep putting mentally ill people on the horses without saddles, which is how I always did my mounted work for really special reason, your insurance is going to go up because these crazy people on these crazy blah, blah. And I was like, well, forget you, I don't really need this anyway. So it's a greater risk to client that is unnecessary for us to take because all of the therapeutic material shows up in the relationship anyway.

I think myself, and like most people, we think of horses as just, they serve one function, so to speak, versus being an entire being unto themselves with their own agency. And is that something that you have to dissuade people from? Often, especially people who maybe grew up around horses, they know horses, so to speak. Are there any instances of them viewing it in a different light?

Absolutely. And the frame that I would put on that kind of, at first blush, is goal versus process. So you could have said, do you ever have clients who are, like, really goal directed and just want to like, let's do some things, let's produce some product, let's halter this horse and let's clean out their feet and let's ride, like, oh, my gosh, everyone in our culture, pretty much, right? Or many people in our culture, so, yes. And we sit with that, and so I'll say, hey, let's go hang out with the horses. And what do you think? And they're like, yeah, but can we go in there and can we do some stuff? And like, come on, like, what are we producing today? What am I paying for today? I'm here with the horses. Let me get some horse, right? And I go, wow, what does that feel like? Right? And they go, ah. It feels like, impatient. I go, ah, dude, do you ever feel this anywhere else? And they go everywhere. My spouse drives me crazy, and I couldn't believe the traffic out here. And I'm thinking, what is their cortisol level? Like, and how do they sleep and how is their digestive system working anyway? And so again, I get this peak, I get this window into how are they functioning and how are they seeing the world and what are the barriers that they might be encountering, which is in the story I'm making that you need to produce something, that you need to achieve goals. You need to be checking things off. And that's what society tells us we have to do. And let me just go a tinge feminist here. And if we are female gendered, we especially need to be doing that and accounting for our worth and accounting for what it is that we are doing in our day that we can show and produce. And that causes a lot of problems and a lot of stress and a lot of, I would say, incongruency in our world. And certainly, you know, male gender people experience this as well. And so we work with that, with the feelings, not with producing goals, but we work with that. And what would it be like if instead, we were in this moment? And as dear client, you are like, I need to go and do something. Hey, can you notice, do you notice what it smells like to be out here at the farm right now? Did you notice those birds? Let's just take a moment and just drop in. And I'm aware, even as I say this, that part of you is like, yeah, so frustrated. And I honor this part. And this part has helped you survive and thrive in this culture. Yes. And also, I'm curious if you can hear those birds right now, because I can. And what is there in this experience for you and in your nervous system? If we just stay with the birds for just a moment, is there value in this? Even though an outsider would say, we're doing nothing, we're standing at the fence doing nothing. Is there value? Can there be value? And so we have conversations about that. So, yes, we work with that a lot.

Yeah. I mean, I used to come into therapy session with, like, a full on itinerary, and, yeah, my therapist had to guide me away from that and to just be with things as they come up, because there's a whole thing about, am I doing therapy right. You know, every client, I think, has asked themselves that at one point. And it's interesting that with equine therapy, there is no right thing to do. I mean, there's safer things in ways of engaging, and there's more effective ways, but there's no good or bad.

My experience as a therapist, there's so many things that you learn from clients of watching and experiencing and being in it. And I'm just curious, what are some of the, like, big takeaways or moments you've had with clients, with the horses that have either changed the way that you do things or given you a new perspective or stuck with you beyond those moments?

Yeah, good question. I think because I started doing this as a young therapist, I mean, it was my first modality that I was really trained in, this hit me really hard, and I probably would have gotten it eventually in a different way if I wasn't doing equine right off the bat. But it's too, it's to trust the process. As young therapists, just like, as clients, or early career therapists, just like, as clients, like, we don't think, are we doing it right? We're always trying to do it right, and we're not doing it right. Like, right. It's just a human experience. Am I showing up the way that I'm supposed to be showing up according to, you know, the culture that we're in? And what I learned in equine therapy is if I can just shut up and, like, just, just stop, if I can just breathe for, like, three more seconds, this will unfold. I don't have to have the next right thing to say. I don't have to know the next right thing. I don't have to show up the way I'm supposed to show up. Whatever the heck that made a contract is, if I can just stay, breathe would be nice. Things do unfold. The client will have an insight. The Horse will move. The horses won't move, and that will be. Something will happen. Life carries us, and. And our experiences are enough. Without us needing to package them and make them and produce them. Them and manage them. We are enough. The experiences are enough. Just being here with the birds is enough. And as a therapist, that was a game changer. I mean, that meant the difference between me trying to do therapy, which we all do, you know, or trying to client do, you know, Tanya, and actually just showing up and being. And the horses taught me that because 100% of the time, if I could just have the patience and not interfere, it did unfold. And now. And now I know reliably now I trust in it, and thus I can take it into my life in my own situations and my own problems. If I can just trust this will unfold, then I don't have to force anything. And ten times out of ten, that is the better outcome for me. Yeah, the horses taught me that. And working with the horses taught me that. Big time. Let go and trust and just show up. That's all that's needed.

It's such an important thing to realize because there is that hole, especially when you're new of, like, what am I doing? Am I doing enough? What do I say next? What do I do if they don't say this? You're trying to plan so much. And I think for me, I was lucky in that before I was a counselor, I worked at a camp for kids and adults with disabilities abilities and got to have that experience with them of, like, there were so many times that they would be exhibiting these behaviors and escalating, and everyone would just try to, like, tell them to calm down or, like, try to make it go away. And I learned very quickly that I was like, you want to go for a walk? And we would just go for a walk, and they'd talk it through, and they'd be really angry, or they'd be whatever they needed to be, and then we'd get back, and everyone would be like, how'd you do that? I'm like, I didn't do anything. I just walked with them while they did it. And I think that's something that I've still been able to experience somewhat with talk therapy of just being there with them. And, like you said, holding that space of, like, we can slow this down and, like, almost watch things play by play rather than the way that life normally goes of, like, we gotta be productive. We gotta do everything. Being able to just be still, I think, has been such a monumental thing of, okay, I don't always have to, like, be in the mindset of what's next, what's going to happen? Is it going to go well? Just trying to reign back into, like, all right, I'm here with them and just focusing on that. So it's interesting how that kind of shows up, no matter the modality.

Yeah, I'm here. We're holding space, and there is no danger, which is a common refrain that I'll throw because I do work with so many traumatized humans, and there is no danger. We're here, and nothing, quote unquote is happening, and nothing bad is happening, which is so different than the fight flight of folks who are coming from traumatized environment where you needed to be acting, reacting, and if it was quiet, quote unquote, that was almost worse because that meant something was going to happen. It was just a matter of when. And so it's like reprogramming, creating a new meaning for what is space and what is silence and what is just being now that it's safe to do that now that safety exists. And then repetition over and over and over and over and over. Every time they show up, we listen to the birds and nothing bad happens. And the nervous system learns a new pattern.

No, that's spectacular. Once again, I'm just more. If I'm silent, it's just I'm processing all the again, really insightful, amazing things you said. And if you want to just tell the audience of, you know, any resources or anything that you're working on and we can leave those in the show notes, we'd love to hear it.

Sure. Yeah. If anyone has questions or wants to reach out to me, my private practice in Canada is equinox therapeutic and consulting services. So it's equinoxtherapeutic.com. they could find me that way. And as to resources, so like I mentioned, it's not regulated, it's not standardized, and Google will be the most unimaginative resource I'll throw if they want to try equine assisted psychotherapy, I guess know that it's called a few different things. Equine assisted psychotherapy will probably get you a psychologist, at least in Alberta, the prefix psycho is regulated. So if you're in Alberta and you Google Equine assisted psychotherapy, you will. You're guaranteed to get a psychologist doing the work. But other terms are equinus to assisted mental health eamh. Equine assisted therapy really look into who is the provider there. Equine facilitated wellness will be another avenue that you can look. So just take a look at who is the provider. What are their credentials? Because it's not regulated, you're not guaranteed to get a counselor or psychologist. So just buyer beware. So yeah, give Google a shout. There are a ton, ton, ton of places out there now. Not like it was what it used to be. And yeah, folks are welcome to reach out to me if they have any questions about anything I said or the field.

And that concludes this episode of therapy is my therapy. If you enjoyed today's episode, please consider subscribing to our podcast so you never miss an update. Once again, thanks for tuning in the content discussed on this podcast. Podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only and does not act as a replacement for therapy. Although we may share tools that have worked for us and talk about symptoms that we've experienced, it is not meant to be used for diagnostic purposes and does not constitute medical advice.