It truly is. The path you're walking on just disintegrates underneath you and no amount of comforting and doing is going to change that. It's more being with it and having people around you who will be in it with you.

Welcome to Therapy is My Therapy, a podcast where licensed counselor Olivia and unlicensed client Tanya delve deep into real and raw conversations in order to demystify what really happens in that hour. Heads up. This podcast contains strong language and sensitive topics.

Hey everyone, it's Tanya. This episode was recorded in January 2024, just after my grandma passed away. It was a rough few weeks and after processing it in therapy, I brought up the topic with Olivia. As always, she proceeded to provide incredible insights such as the importance of simply being present with someone who's going through it. Additionally, we go through our segment post game analysis, and we also introduce a new one called Move of the Day where we talk about successful implementations of therapeutic practices in real life. Enjoy the episode. Hey guys, my grandma died. We've been trying to find a good way to we've been trying to find a good way to elegantly lead up to it, but you know what? No dead grandma. And I'm mad at my dad. And I think this might unfortunately be the take I keep because everything else just felt so, I don't know, weird.

It's tough to beat. Like I went to dim sum with my grandma and then she died that night.

Also slightly high. I was on edibles and I was like, I have to navigate this whole thing Slightly high as balls right now.

Oh my God.

Although I did have the foresight to take enough to make the food tasty and to make interacting with my parents easier, but not enough if something went down. So good job with thinking there past Tanya.

Well, how could you know? There's no way to plan for that.

No, I. Yeah, it was a wild day that I, I won't get into here, but I definitely got into in session with Katherine. Also, I'm just laughing because the most abrupt, quote unquote awkward way of leading in feels the most natural to us.

Well, how did you tell Katherine?

She always has wanted me to email her in between sessions. I don't do it that often, but that week was kind of intense where I'd like had one where, hey, I just had a difficult conversation with my parents and this happened immediately. Another one after that, hey, I had a difficult conversation with my brother and then two days later, hey, hey, Grandma kicked the bucket. Actually, it's a perfect lead in to the question what do you do when a client is just going through it, especially in such rapid succession?

Yeah, it's, it's something that I'm so used to at this point that it doesn't feel that shocking or weird when it happens because people are dying all the time and bad things are pretty much always happening. It definitely shifts things if it was unexpected in terms of like what the focus of the work is on. Because the whole, you know, hierarchy of needs, if your basic safety and whatever needs aren't met, you can't really be trying to self actualize. So if we were working on like time management skills and then your grandma dies, we're not going to keep working on that. For the most part we're going to be shifting to sitting with the heavy grief happening. So I think the immediate first thought for me when it's shared is I feel the focus kind of turning. But I mean, grief is not something that you can scale away, right? Like it's, it's there and it is not going to go away until you look at it. And so my role is a lot of sitting with it and letting whatever comes up come up. So it's definitely can be jarring when it's something unexpected because like you feel the emotional human pain of what that's like. It doesn't usually throw me too much because I've had it happen so many times that it's just like, you know, occupational hazard.

You're so in a sense inoculated and skilled in that domain of navigating these things and knowing how to switch gears that you're able to switch to what sort of other care do I need to provide rather than honestly how the rest of us normies do it, where we're gonna keep button mashing that one skill that we have. And usually, yeah, people don't have the wherewithal to be like, how do I switch from focusing on this to that? And Katherine and I were working on things such as trying to find purpose in life and self actualizing things. And then yeah, and then she gets a series of emails like, I'm mad at my dad and I'm sad about this. And grandma and I found it interesting in regards to how does a therapist navigate supporting a client in the stage where the training wheels are starting to come off. I can feel like there's a shift in how I interact with Katherine and I'm wondering what could possibly be going on from a therapeutic point of view.

So when you say training wheels coming off, do you mean on your end of feeling Ready to maybe hit the next level of what you're healing or.

What'S coming up in regards to training wheels. I mean, where my first initial instinct isn't to self harm anymore or to self denigrate and there is a rapport with my emotions and my intellectual self, so to speak, where before it was just screaming into the void or just dissociating and ignoring and I had no vocabulary, no shared vocabulary with my emotions and my intellectual. Now I feel like she's doing similar things as she was before, but they're, they're almost a little more mature, if that makes sense. Like how you would speak to a very young child versus a teenager versus an adult. And the nuances I feel, does that shift as someone progresses in therapy?

Yeah, I mean, I think from that perspective it's either way you're learning math, but what you're teaching to a five year old versus what you're teaching to a college student is more advanced math. So I think there's levels of. Some people come to therapy short term to address a particular problem that they maybe need skills with or want to work through a process or whatever. And then there's people who are in therapy longer maybe because a certain stressor that they're involved in, like high school or a tough breakup or other things like that that are maybe longer term but still are maybe more focused on. Not surface level, because I don't think any of it's surface level, but it's more kind of straightforward. And then some people choose to stay in therapy on and off their whole lives or for a very long time. And that's usually more of a deeper sense of truly healing and trying to reach higher levels of living. I don't know how to describe it. I think some people reach that point where they want to continue improving even if they're able to manage everything well. They want to get deeper and get more aware of things and more able to do the whole self actualization thing. So I think it's a tough question because every experience is so different. But I don't know that there's necessarily a big difference in the way I'm maybe talking to people. But it might be more what topics we're moving towards that are different or sometimes more challenging of the client if that's what they're looking for. But it really depends on what the treatment goals are.

I imagine it's similar to a fitness or rehab journey. Some people just want to be out of pain and that and then once you get there, that's it. And then some people go oh actually this is kind of bothering me or this is bothering me. And you go through and, and do a more holistic or yeah, just a more multifactorial kind of approach to treatment. And then some people want to or just want to continue optimizing and seeing where they can improve and what new things they can learn because they're. There's always new shit that comes up in therapy even when things are going really well. So yeah, our segment post game analysis. We simply just go through recent therapy sessions and the funny things that come up, the thought provoking and lessons learned. I guess I can start with mine. So I found that a recent therapy session in regards to my grandma passing actually dovetails nicely with the common misconception where people think therapy is simply about going through the past and how you heal is going into the past. I wanted to quote something written by Irvin Yalom is that a therapist helps a patient not by sifting through the past, but by being lovingly present with that person. So I had a recent therapy session, probably a few sessions after. So there was the initial quote unquote emergency crisis session with my grandma about my grandma passing. And then after a few sessions as I process it and I had a yeah, the session just sounded like being high in your friend's basement where you just, I don't know, you say stuff like do babies recognize other babies as babies? Or you know, just weird bullshit. And anyways, so a few weeks in January I had been just dealing with the concept of death and how final it is. And in session we talked about, we talked about nothing, so to speak. So in the beginning of the session we just zoomed in and out of what my body was feeling. And I also just kept asking questions in regards to understanding death and what do you do as a therapist to navigate when they are asking understandable questions and how that's a process to acceptance or they're intellectualizing instead of focusing on the somatic experience.

It's something that I think again depends on what the questions are about because death specifically is really different from other things in that and we've talked about this before and it's the same person, Yalam, who did existential therapy was the one who coined fellow travelers. Right. Of the therapist is not just this expert walking ahead of you, it is just another person going through life walking beside you. And death is a really clear example of that of your therapist has never died, they've probably experienced other people dying. But when you have those existential questions about the universe and death and what that all looks like. You're basically just sitting with another person who doesn't know the answers either. And it doesn't really matter what your therapist's views are on it. What's important is for them to be able to help you sit with your own and be in the discomfort of being confronted with death. I mean, I don't know specifically what questions you were asking your therapist, but if it's in regard to those kind of universal why are we here? What's happening, what is death kind of things. I don't necessarily view that as intellectualizing it, because that's what it is. Right. Like death is a strange concept that no one fully understands. So I don't think in most cases with that, it's someone who's trying to pull away from the feeling of it. It seems like more. It's just, do you want to better understand and explore the thing that is causing you pain?

I remember expressing these questions such as they sounded like a four year old in a sense, where I'm like, how can there be nothing? What does nothing mean? And it did turn into this very eclectic mix of topics where she was trying to do somatic therapy and then saw that that wasn't. It's not that it wasn't working, but it kept going somewhere else the conversation. So we moved on to things like inner parts philosophy, Zen Buddhism, especially in regards to how there's richness in nothingness is how she described it. Because I just, I was really struggling with understanding how, you know, my mental image is grandma is moving and alive and then she isn't. And although it sounds like hoity toity intellectual stuff, I feel like the connection I made when she talked about the richness and nothingness was. It felt like a childlike light bulb going off in my head. We're like, oh, okay. Because I had learned something similar from reading this book, Lawrence the Universe from Nothing, which is about quantum physics and how nothingness actually holds a great deal of instability and potential and matter just spontaneously arises from it. And it was such a. I remember her and I went down this really interesting thread because I feel like I'm always referencing weird books and stuff when she's there or weird, weird animal facts. And they were, I don't know, they felt very childlike in a child trying to understand by applying a different experience on top of it, which I don't know if that makes sense. This is going to be a weird abstract episode, I feel like.

I mean, it sounds like you were just Kind of having existential questions and that's normal behavior after experiencing a loss, specifically one that was seemingly unexpected or sudden. And sometimes that's what deals with you need to do. And a lot of people don't want to have those conversations because they're scary and require you to generally feel very out of control. Knowing that death is not something you have any real understanding of or ability to predict or change. I think that can be really helpful for people who are going through grief to process it in therapy and ask those questions and not expect answers from the therapist because, you know, what do they know about that? But being able to have that space to ask those questions and explore them. Because a lot of people find that when someone dies, people around them don't have the capacity to really like sit with it and not be uncomfortable and not turn away or shut down the questions or you know, things like that. Because it's, it's heavy.

It is really heavy. I was struck by, I think I, well, had mentioned it earlier, but in terms of how to me it indicated her level of, I don't know, experience of, dare I say, competence and knowing. Knowing that she didn't quite know what I needed in that moment. But she in a sense relied on her training or relied on her instinct. Right. Because was there ever a situation, especially in the beginning where you go step by step like, you know, we try this way of thinking or we tried this line of questioning and was there ever a point where you just in a sense threw out that structure and were like, let's see where this goes?

Yeah, I mean I think that happens all the time where I can't necessarily predict what a client is going to need from me. I can ask them and sometimes they know, but a lot of it is just allowing things to start moving and see where the pain is and what feels helpful. And sometimes it's like the you're getting cooler, you're getting warmer game of Especially people who haven't been in therapy before are not necessarily going to know what is going to feel good and what's not and also what is going to be helpful long term versus what's going to help in that moment. Because sometimes it feels really good to just vent about something, but then later you're like, well now I don't actually know what to do about it and vice versa. Sometimes people think they just want clear cut skills of okay, well what do I do when this happens? But then later there's a sense of okay, but I still feel gross because I haven't really talked it through. So I think sometimes it's like a learning process of figuring out what is really needed in each moment, but there's not like a set formula. And it also depends so heavily on your theoretical orientation, because you could take the same issue and 10 therapists are going to do it 10 different ways, and it could be vastly helpful depending on the client sitting in front of them. So it's. Unfortunately, you learn that a lot of the answers are it depends because it's such an individualized thing.

Yeah, that would make sense. And I don't know if it's indicative of a good or bad or effective or ineffective therapist, but I find for me personally, having a therapist who has, I guess, flexibility in regards to the way the session goes, I found that to be more helpful than someone who only viewed treatment through a certain lens. And, you know, we have to do it this way. This is the way I prefer. So, yeah, it's really interesting that you talked about how, especially when it comes to a topic like death, the therapist isn't going to be an expert on it. And you just have to, I guess, flow with the go, as it were. And in the session, I remember describing it to her where I had that sensation where it felt like I was wading out further into waters like I had never explored before. I realized in my body I wasn't really scared, but I still kept looking back to her. Catherine proverbially being on the shore just to have a sense of safety and bearing, because I'm exploring waters that I've never gone through. And I'm doing it in a way that it's emotional, but it feels different than how I used to do, which is a very. I don't know, just a very unguided way or a very. It stayed unprocessed. Whereas here there seems to be an actual flow as to where I'm meant to be carried. And it brought to mind of how I had mentioned earlier, where the dynamic between Catherine and I, it feels different now in many of our sessions, in the beginning, it felt more like a parent tending or holding space for a smaller child. And now it's changing. And what does a mature client therapist relationship look like? As in you've gotten to know each other over the years and they've grown to a place where you have to engage with them differently. For the most part.

I think it's probably similar to any other skill acquisition thing, whether it's, you know, like, we always kind of compare it to jiu jitsu or anything really, that you're learning. It's just that the level you're going to is going to be. It might still feel just as hard, but it's going to be hard because you're also better. So it's the whole in holes where they tell the old story of carrying the pig up the mountain and it's like the pig's getting bigger but you're also getting stronger. So it's heavier to carry but you're better at carrying it. So I think a lot of times it can look similar to people earlier on, but the process is a lot deeper because they usually have at that point base level 6 skills and know how to generally manage stressors, but are maybe more focused on getting to a deeper root of where things are coming from or how things are impacting them that aren't necessarily changeable. Right. Things like death or other hard stuff that all the skills in the world are not going to make them go away. So I don't know how it looks different in the sense of the content because it could be anything. But I think the process is a little bit more client led because they usually are more able at that point to know what things are going to be useful for them to talk about and what things are more going to be distracting from the real issues. And again, I think it's, it's complicated because there's thousands of different things that people come to therapy for and the things that they start out in often turn into totally different things that they want help with. So it's like a whole journey that I don't know if there's a way to really pinpoint how it looks different. But like, you know, I'm imagining how you're going to explain a move to a white belt is a lot simpler because you just want them to figure it out first and then teach them the seven other ways to get to that move. And then it's okay. Well now there's even more details and more details and more ways to get to this and then more ways to prevent this from happening. And it goes on and on and on and on.

When I first walked in there, she honestly probably spent a month teaching me how to tie my belt, so to speak. I just turned around, I was like, I don't know which way is up. And I mean, when in doubt I use a jujitsu metaphor. And that one actually really helped a lot because I actually marvel at the fact that I am able to even be somewhat comfortable with not knowing the answer to something. Like not knowing how do I Solve death and to sit with it. I use a ton of visual metaphors in session where I feel like I'm walking on this path on a sidewalk, and then the sidewalk just disappears into nothingness. And throughout the session, we just sat there on the edge of that sidewalk, overlooking the void. And I remember she had encouraged me to make look into the nothingness and just see what's there because there's so many interesting emotions and sensations and thoughts that come up. And to circle back to the Irvin Yalom quote. I realized that it was where I would have gone and where I would have liked my therapist to go back in the day was to circle back to a traumatic explanation of what death was when I was a kid and focused on that childhood trauma. But I realized that my relationship with Katherine had changed because it went from focusing on that past event to just sitting in this odd feeling of something I can't answer. And I remember I just kept repeating, it's all so weird. This is weird, dude. And she's just like, yep, it really is. And that was. That was extremely healing. Because how most of us, like I said, most of us normies, try to engage with somebody is to answer the question is to fix it, is to just essentially put an end to the problem. Whereas oftentimes what I realize I need is to just, in a sense, do less. And that is the hardest thing, because it's actually funny how you said how while I may get stronger, things do get harder. Because now Catherine is like, do less. And I'm like, what does that mean? What is radical acceptance? Why? Why? There's no hard edge for me to, like, get a grip on. It's just to simply be with this emotion. I'm like, that's not possible. I don't. What are you even saying? So I feel like, yeah, for me, that's just been the natural progression of my work together with Katherine. And it doesn't mean it's above or below anyone else's. It's just using my own personal yardstick. I feel that that's how the relationship has matured.

Yeah, I think that's a really good way of putting it, that there reaches a point in therapy where it's a lot less doing and a lot more being of. I can do XYZ to help me cope with this and that, but I just have to be in it, and I have to learn how to be in the fact that the world is this thing that we can't explain or change or really understand. We're moving with it. Right. It's the Neil DeGrasse Tyson. You are the universe experiencing itself. There's nothing we can do about it. Right. When someone dies and we didn't expect it or something else happens that wasn't planned, it truly is. The path you're walking on just disintegrates underneath you. And no amount of comforting and doing is going to change that. It's more being with it and having people around you who will be in it with you instead of trying to like platitudes of comfort and support that are nice to hear, but they don't really, in my experience, stick. It's more the people that won't look away when you're just standing there floating, not knowing where the ground is. And having that experience of people willing to look at this hard thing with me, that I think is generally the most helpful when it comes to those more existential issues. Because yes, there are ways to add more meaning into your life and live within your values and figure out how your identities and roles are contributing or detracting from your well being. But death is just there no matter what. And no amount of skills is going to make that completely go away.

Yeah, and this is a very random association, but a memory popped into my head where I was at work and I was talking to a colleague and throughout the thread of the conversation they had said that they were coping with the loss of one parent and then the other parent had like dementia or Alzheimer's and was, you know, nearing the end of their life. And I remember she, she started crying and there was a, a moment where I went through a Rolodex of like, here are things to say. But I mean, I somehow had the wherewithal to just be like, there's nothing to say. I just gave her a hug. I'm, I mean, I asked her and I'm just like, hey, let's just sit here in this shitty feeling. And it was a really odd interaction in the sense, I think she was confused and in the sense of usually people say something, usually people feel that silence. But when it comes to these things, there's not much to say. And I feel that is in regards to loss and pain in general. Because I think of when fighters lose a fight, even well intentioned people will come up to them and be like, it's okay, there's the next one, you'll be better than before, so on and so forth, and there's nothing to talk about. And that's okay, we don't have to talk, we can just chill and you know, there might be some things that we learned and we can look at that, but there is. Yeah, there's just that process of waiting through it. And it is immensely healing to do it with someone who isn't afraid to look at it. And fuck, most people are. I mean, I am at times and throughout this work, I feel like I've become more comfortable with it. And did you find that to be the case with you?

Yeah. I mean, to your earlier point, sometimes a loss is just a loss. We do not have to find the silver lining. We don't have to say you're going to grow from it or that it's all happening for a reason. Sometimes you just lose and it sucks. And having to make other people feel better by being positive about it is not helpful. But yeah, I think the second part of your question of, like, if it's changed for me having be a part of it so often. Right. That's what you're asking. If my experience of being around and talking about all of it has made it easier.

Yeah. Yeah. I was wondering if. I realize it sounds kind of dumb when I think about it. Like, when you learned how to do it and did it a whole bunch, did you get better at doing it? But essentially that's my question is did you internalize that societal message of imperialistic positivity and platitudes and so on and so forth, or were you able to flow with things from the jump? I don't know.

Yeah, I think I've always been anti good vibes only.

That's why. That's why I fucks with you. I am bad vibes only.

I. I just. I don't know. Like, if I have to convince myself to have good vibes, I'm not having good vibes. When I'm vibing, I'm vibing. And when I'm grieving, I'm grieving. And that's not to say that there's not gratitude, because I'm always able to find gratitude. But I'm not going to force myself to feel better if I'm not feeling better. So I think that has always been a me thing. I think I used to be a little bit too bad vibes. I think there was a lot of. For a while, the sense of like, everything sucks and I'm gonna find something bad even in the good things. And I have luckily done a lot of work through that. But I think it's just as harmful to always be positive as it is to always be negative. If you're doing it in A way that's not truly authentic. And it's also so invalidating to the people around you to just be like, encouraging them to be happy or positive or good vibes.

It's for a reason.

Yeah, no, yeah. In my experience, it's not helpful to tell people any of those things when they're not feeling great.

That is something I have been learning. I will learn. I am learning all the tenses of that word because not just simply positivity, but I tend to be a doer. Like, what can I do? Is there something I can fix? I like problem solving and yeah, through therapy and also some foot in mouth situations where I realized I learned the hard way. I'm like, oh, people don't want it solved. They just want you with them. And I just absolutely adore you that you're not just only good vibes. And I think a lot of people think therapists are good vibes only and just softness forever. But you and Gene and the other therapists I've met, they are wonderfully, I don't know how to say brutal, but they're essentially. They're brutal in the sense that they're absolutely unafraid to face those what I refer to as sticky emotions. And they're like, yes, let's be in them. We don't have to stay in there forever, but we're here now, so let's just kick it while we're here. There's no need to change it. And then I'm going to completely flip it around because I found a nuance yesterday where I was essentially feeling sorry for myself. And I'm not going to denigrate it, but it's like I was frustrated with the number of health issues and how overwhelmed I feel. And I also had a moment where I was like, no, no, we're not doing that right now. It felt very different. I don't know how to pinpoint the somatic or emotional quality that made it different. But I decided that I had enough of this vibe. And I'm just putting this vibe away now because it's. It's not even that it wasn't. It was unproductive where I felt I was just like, I don't want it, I don't want it anymore. And I don't know, maybe it's not analyze me, but what would be your hypothesis to how to differentiate between like a repression and just like, you know what? I'm actually, I'm actually going to focus on this other stuff over here instead because I just. This is simply now What I want to do.

Yeah. I mean, I think for me, I view it as, like, this box of I'm sad, I'm content, or like, I'm grieving or I'm good, or, you know, those two kind of opposite sides of feeling. And then there's just neutral. But there's I'm feeling shitty, and I want to feel shitty because I think it will help to work through it. Then there's, I'm feeling shitty, but I want to feel good. Then there's, I'm feeling good and I want to stay good. And then there's, I'm feeling good, but I know I really should be feeling bad and I'm ignoring it. And so I just kind of get to that point of recognizing what am I feeling? Is this what is helpful? And what I really know will be best for me? So if I'm feeling bad and I want to feel better, and I know I'm just kind of wallowing, and it's repetitive and it's not helping, I do things that make me feel better. I get outside, I move my body, I talk to my funniest friends, I watch shows or movies that I know are going to make me laugh, and I get myself to do those things because I know even if I don't feel good now, I'm going to feel good when I do them. And then if I'm sad and I want to be sad, I listen to my sad playlists and I watch my sad movies and I talk to people that I know will just be in it with me. And then if I'm happy and I want to stay happy, I just keep doing what I'm doing. And if I'm happy and I know I need to be sad, then I start doing my sad shit. And it might sound silly, but I've gotten to a point where I'm generally able to tune into my body and. And what I need and know that, like, yes, this sucks, but this is what I need right now. Or, all right, you're ignoring it. Cause it's gonna suck. But, you know, you gotta do it. It's a process to get to that point, I think. But for me, it's just tuning in, figuring out what I need, and then regardless of if I want to do it or have the energy to do it, taking one step at a time to do the things that will get me to the box I need to be in.

That's amazing. Thank you. It actually is a perfect lead in to. Well, I'm. I'm calling it Move of the day, like jiu jitsu, where I don't know if you want to, but I'm gonna highlight an interesting and honestly a pretty rewarding experience where I did the thing. And so similar to that box of I'm feeling bad and I know I want to get out of it. I've had instances where my inner parent has decided that, okay, that's enough ice cream or that's enough screaming in the Walmart and they carry my inner child into the car. They're like, okay, we go elsewhere now. And so the context was that I was, you know, mourning the loss of my grandma and I had a lot of rage in regards to my dad for his choices that he made while my grandma was having her medical episodes. Right. So I was in full angsty, I hate my dad teenager mode where I'm pretty sure I could just envision the emo hair spikes and eyeliner and just being mad. And that felt good. But there was a point in that, like rage fueled rant where there was a voice that came in and be like, okay, I think it's time to play that therapy exercise where you role play from the person's perspective, which I have heard couples therapists use or family therapists use, where you go like, be your dad in that moment and just describe what you're feeling. And, you know, it changed the dynamic. But first I wanted if you could take a moment to explain what that exercise is for the listeners.

Yeah, so I don't do couples or family therapy, so it's not my expertise area. But from what I remember in grad school, the function of role playing in general can be really helpful because one, it gives the therapist a better idea of the person you're talking about because we don't know them. So putting you in that position of being able to speak from their perspective helps us know what you're dealing with and also can be really useful in the sense of modeling how to talk to somebody who is speaking that way. So in the like individual therapy sense of role playing, you're being your dad and I'm being you. I can kind of help you learn and process. When he says this or does this, what's a way that you can respond that might not be as inflammatory or that might feel a little better or, you know, that might even just in general prepare you for what it might look like. And especially when it's something like that, like, you know how your dad fights, you know how he's going to talk to you, you know what he's going to say, that's going to piss you off and put you in that mindset where you're going to snap. So exposing yourself to that in a safe space where you can practice having the conversation and, like, mess up and have it be fine is really helpful. I've had that experience with clients where we're doing that and they're just like, ah, it's driving me so mad that, like, this is how I know they're going to respond. And it's like, you have that chance to, like, let that out and work through that before you're actually sitting in front of them doing it. But in the case of, like, couples therapy or family therapy, I think it's also used to help put each person in the perspective of what it must be like being them and gaining some sense of empathy and understanding of, yes, from your own point of view, the other person is always feeling harmful, but you also might feel harmful to them. So that's like kind of a condensed version.

That's fantastic. And how. I've heard the. At least the couples therapy version of the role playing, how it starts and how it ends was very similar to how it went for me. So what I mean is usually when the therapist will ask, like, Tanya, you pretend to be Olivia. And it usually starts in a. Almost like a mocking way, like, oh, look at me, I have perfect skin. Watch me do. And then, you know, they almost mock the person. And as you actually go through that exercise, you're like, oh, I have this, this and this, and I'm. I'm coming from this point of view. And you go, ah, fuck. And that's how it went for me. I won't get into it too much, but I was doing that in my head. So I was like, I'm my dad. I'm a stupid, emotionally constipated jerk. And this emergency is happening. And then eventually I come to the point where I go, oh, I'm scared. This is happening. I don't know what to do. And there is these other complicated things at play that muddy the waters as to what I. I feel I'm able to do. And at the end of it, I was mad, but for a different reason, because I. I describe it as, you know, the rage. It. It's activating it. There's a dopaminergic component to where being mad feels good. And when you do this exercise and when you take the time to truly understand where someone's coming from, it. It feels like that that hot, fiery ball of rage has now just been doused with water. And yes, it doesn't burn anymore, it doesn't cause you pain, but you're also kind of just standing there like an idiot, just dripping water and be like, oh. And I had. Catherine laughed when I. Or she chuckled when I told her that at the end of this exercise it really does stop it in its tracks when you really put yourself emotionally in another person's situation and it's fucking annoying. It's all gotta say, this maturity stuff, this emotional maturity stuff is rewarding but also frustrating because it doesn't feel good, so to speak.

It's something that I've definitely experience as a therapist because you have so many people that like you encounter that you probably wouldn't have in other settings. Because I think for the most part people generally tend to be around other people, that you have similar values, worldviews, interests as. And that really shuts you off from the way that everyone else thinks and feels and exists. And so it has been deeply infuriating and also very moving to hear perspectives from every kind of person. And it makes it impossible to like, not humanize people because even individuals that I have vastly, vastly different views on things as when you see them in your office and they are just as scared as in pain as everyone else, it really makes you see like people that you think are just hateful and spiteful and terrible are also probably dealing with the same human issues that you are underneath. And that doesn't excuse people who are doing terrible things, but it does kind of remove that piece of like, well, I can't imagine how they would get to that point. I feel like I can truly understand how anyone could get to any point because there's so much pain inside of everyone that it's easier for me to be able to find some similarities with everyone. And it does make it brutal then when you're in arguments with people because there's this voice in your head that's like, but they're going through this and that and this is where they're coming from and here's how they're feeling and that's hard to navigate. But it's also been vastly helpful for my own ability to have interpersonal relationships because I think I used to really, really struggle to see other people's point of view. And I would get so just stubborn and hard headed about how could they possibly do this to me. Now I'm much more able to be like, oh, they're not necessarily doing this to me, they're just existing. And it's not the same way. I'M existing.

Yeah. You guys spoil all of our fun.

Yeah. It does ruin your life. I will say that.

Genuine empathy and compassion for people. And I'm constantly yelling at Katherine because it's her fault. Where I'm having richer and also more painful experiences. But it's like, I reach for a weapon and it's not there. It's just gone. But it does come with the perk of, like, oh, I have these 10 other weapons or 10 other tools that I can use. They're not as fun in the moment, but it actually gets me through it versus, you know, sex, drugs, and rock and roll apparently doesn't solve anything.

Yeah. Like, I guess I just can't verbally annihilate you in an argument so that I feel better. Cool. I guess I'll just sit here and listen and understand. Yeah. It's hard because I grew up learning that words are weapons, and sometimes they're the only ones that keep you safe. And so it was a tough journey getting to a place where I could have conflicts with people and not just, like, hurt them.

Yeah, I feel that. I think it's a quote from Ender's Game where Ender talks about how.

I love that book.

It's amazing.

It's so good. It's probably my top five.

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's definitely up there. It's just remarkable. And I remember he said something along the lines of, you hit the enemy, you hit the bully so hard that they can never get back up again. And that is how I conducted my most of my interpersonal discussions. And sure, it, you know, the conflict was over, but so was the relationship. And it's remarkable, and it's terrifying and it's frustrating and all of these things, when you go, you have these realizations where, oh, that person contains multitudes, just like I do, and has hopes and fears. And I can't just flatten them down to a caricature of themselves because it just isn't the case. And I know that it's not the case. And no matter how hard I try, I can't unknow that.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's something that too, because, like, Ender's Game is one of those books that I always related too heavily to. And I remember the moment I kind of realized, like. Because that line always stuck out of, like, yeah, you hit them hard enough that they never can hit you again. And that always made sense to me. And then I reached a point of realizing, like, well, the reason that they picked him in that book is because they were breeding children for war. And he had the right perspective for them because they needed somebody to fight in a war. And I don't want to have to fight in a war in all of my friendships and relationships and life. And so I think that was a very big shift for me. And that was something that I remember rereading the book when I had done a lot more healing work and being like, oh, I see this from the other side now. Of, yes, those are things that I had to do in the situations that I was in, but they're not functional anymore. And it's the same reason that Ender had such a horrible time trying to adjust back to life. And the same reason you see every hero in the classic stories not be able to fit back into society afterwards, because they were created and designed to. To fight and win and only have that one thing in mind, that then when you have to reintegrate to society where, like, compassion is allowed again and is safe again, it's so jarring.

Yeah, absolutely. And just honestly, for me personally, I. I realized that it's not just that I can go to like a hundred on something that makes me as strong or effective or actualized person. It's for me, I'm realizing more and more that it's about being able to switch between or switch on and off things. And they do that in exercise science, where they say for Navy Seals and selections, it's not the person that can go the hardest or run the fastest or what have you. It's actually what they've noticed, that these people are actually able to turn off and rest and have that parasympathetic state and then turn it on when they need to. And that's a lot more effective than someone like me who is constantly just in this one state. And it does the opposite, I found, for making you stronger. Just it makes you. Makes you harder, but it makes you more brittle. And that's been my personal journey, is to just push limits of the different states I have, like, sitting with Death of Sitting with Nothingness. As someone who's constantly in motion, constantly task oriented, this is. This is hard for me, you know, whereas another person might have a harder time doing things, and that is what it is. But I. Yeah, I fucking love that book. It's so. I gotta reread it.

It's so good.

I had realized that I was very uncomfortable with editing the episode of the podcast that talks about my own trauma and all of the old trauma responses of, you know, being a gray mouse, of staying small and. And don't talk about your things. And I realized I had that discomfort and just navigating, like talking about your story, about how to. I don't know how to get comfortable with both accepting and your story and discussing it with others or sharing it with others, rather.

Yeah. And I think it depends on the audience who's hearing it. Right. Like, it's different sharing it with close people that you know aren't going to judge you versus freely to the world where they can interpret it with very little context and make assumptions off of you. So I think there's a different level of readiness for one than the other. But I think getting comfortable with your own story too is kind of underrated or under discussed because a lot of times it's. The narrative that you have for yourself is often really riddled with bitterness and resentment and a sense of the world has been a bad place for me. And a lot of times that's true for people, but that's also only one part of the story. And I think it's hard when the only focus is on all the things that have gone poorly because it creates this mindset that the world is going to keep hurting you. And I think a lot of times it's viewed too as this intentional thing. People have it out for me, the world is against me. These things are happening. Not necessarily on purpose, but of course this would happen to me kind of thing. And I have been there where it feels like that it's not necessarily that you have to get rid of that. It's more just recognizing that, like, the world is just hard and weird. And there are a lot of cases where lots of people in the world are against you, especially when we look at oppressed groups and different situations where you're not making that up. People are 100% hoping that you do badly and wishing bad things on you. And I think it's trying to find the middle ground when you're sharing your own story of the ways that you are in control and the ways that you're not. You know, things that have happened to you and what you can do to move forward with it. And also things that, like, you truly just can't change. Right. Like people who have chronic illnesses or again, people who are targeted by other people and in financial situations that are really difficult to change or move through and stuff like that. Where I think sharing your own story can be really powerful. And it also can be very exposing if you're not sure in yourself and the ways that you have gotten through what's happened. So I think whether it's therapy or other means of really figuring out your narrative and working through it in a way that it feels true to yourself can be really helpful. And sharing it with people who, again, and I've said this before, like people who have earned the safety for you right. Of not just telling people the first time you meet them. Here's all the shitty things that have happened to me. Do you still like me? That can be ultimately harmful. Not always, but, you know, it happens. And sharing those vulnerable parts of your story with people who have showed you that they're going to be a safe person to the best of your knowledge. And then again, if you're going to share it more broadly with people, I think it's going to be uncomfortable no matter how much preparation you do. But knowing that you can't control the way people are going to perceive you and that you could tell things in the most direct, clear, concise way, and people are going to find a way to twist it into how they want to view it and have their own experiences making your story into something else. And there's nothing you can do about that. So I think when you're at that point of sharing it broadly being okay and secure in the fact that it's not fully your story anymore, the same way that art, once you put it out, doesn't matter what you thought it meant, people are going to take it how they think it means. So I think that's something that's a much bigger choice. That has to be a lot more intentional.

That was brilliant and shit. Honestly, I don't know what else we can add to that. That was a mic drop of an answer. So I'm like, yeah. Yep. And I think that circles back really nicely about how just how underrated and difficult it is to have that skill of just accepting the reality of what things are. Just like, listen, I can't. I can't change how you're going to feel. And that's a you problem and not a me problem. And, yeah, just staying firm in that. For me, it also is about getting comfortable with the fact that my story or my truth will change. And it can, because I recall holding onto the idea that my parents were a certain way and that's all they ever were, and that's, you know, and flattening them to just caricature of themselves. And as I've grown and as I've looked back at these stories where I'm able to apply more nuance and understanding or just different emotions and see these experiences much like you reading Ender's game differently, I didn't think I would enjoy that experience as much as I did, but I found that to be actually healing of oh, this doesn't have to be this way. It doesn't have to be told in this way. There's. There's more texture to it than you originally thought. So that would be my take. But if you have any closing remarks.

Yeah, I think that's just helpful in general. Of I think we can be so rigid in the way that we view ourselves and other people in the world that it can be useful to broaden that perspective. Even just being curious about what it might be like if you felt differently or what it might mean if people in your life that feel harmful were maybe not always doing it on purpose. Maybe they are being completely intentional and harming you and being able to just shift into a point of more okay, well, what can I control about it, right? I cannot force anyone to be anything. I can't make them be less hateful. I can't make them speak to me the way that I want them to. The best I can do is be really firm in my boundaries of what I'm okay with accepting and then try to stick to that. And I don't have to hate a person to step back from them. I can release some of that anger and resentment while also keeping myself safe. So I think that's something that is important to be mindful of.

And that concludes this episode of Therapy Is My Therapy. If you enjoyed today's episode, please consider subscribing so you never miss an update. Once again, thanks for tuning in. The content discussed on this podcast is for educational and entertainment purpose only and does not act as a replacement therapy. Although we may share tools that have worked for us and talk about symptoms you've experienced, it is not meant to be.