Episode 15 – Combat, Based ft. Alan Shebarro | Part 2

What I mean, I, I build myself up to the point where I'm, you know, I'm not weak. I'm. I'm strong now, you know, and now that there's, you know, I have an issue. Why would I ever want to make that public?

Welcome to Therapy Is My Therapy a podcast where licensed counselor Olivia and unlicensed client Tanya delve deep into real and raw conversations in order to demystify what really happens in that 50 minute hour. Heads up. This podcast contains strong language and sensitive topics related to mental health.

Hey, everyone. Tanya here. In part two of this episode with Alan Shabarrow, we talk about things such as the question of whether or not to seek a therapist who's qualified in treating veterans, the healing that comes from saying nothing at all with people who get it, the paradox of how curious we are for the welfare of others but not ourselves, and how the mask we wear can suffocate us. Once again. We're honored that Alan took the time to take his mask off and be vulnerable with us all in the name of spreading the word of mental health awareness for veterans. Enjoy the episode. I remember on another episode you had answered the question of when someone asks you, Olivia, are you qualified to help me with this and what that actually means? I hate to make you repeat yourself, but do you mind repeating? Because I think it really is pertinent what the. Often the underlying reason is, right?

So like, I mean, especially in situations like that, if. And I don't particularly specialize in working with military, but I think the, the idea is that any therapist who is doing their job correctly is going to be able to hold space and empathize with whatever the client is going through without having had to go through it themselves. That's not to say that it's not helpful to find someone who specializes it because I think that's the best option, right? Like if you can find someone who either. There are tons of therapists who are veterans and I think that is really huge because it removes so much of the time spent having to explain things to them. People worry a lot that therapists are not qualified to understand what they're going through, especially if you've been through things like that that are so unimaginable and things that maybe you're not really allowed to fully talk about or share. The whole point of therapy is that we can have this space that is yours that regardless of if I've been through anything like it, I can sit with you in that space and, and understand to the best of my ability how it's impacting you and how to make it so that it affects your life less going forward. But I think a lot of times, especially in these cases, rightfully so, people worry that no one is gonna get it and that it's gonna feel more isolating.

I understand the first therapist's reason for referring you out, but also when you have to be vulnerable, especially in the context of having been. Having been a big, tough SF guy. And, you know, vulnerability isn't really something that you can show often. And to be in that position and feel rejected, that. That is tough. And. And for anyone out there, I. I say finding a. The right therapist is sort of like dating. It can take a while. Like, I went through nine, and some of those were pretty weird, funny stories. But it is hard. I can understand when people feel like they're too broken to be fixed. They're either like other people will tell them they're not broken enough, and then inside you feel you're too broken to ever hurt, hope to be fixed. And I don't know how graceful a segue, but what really resonated with me with a couple things is that one, you spoke of your dog, Ranger, and how you guys had such a connection that you didn't need words. Right? And I remember as I was researching, one of the things you did in your healing was to just sit with your friends, because there was something about a bond where you don't need words. And from both of you, I'd love to hear you talk about just the importance of that.

If I would have known then what I know now, I know things would have been different. I would have accepted a lot more things, making it easier to at least build a foundation of understanding what I needed to do, how I needed to do it. And when you have that group session, and I just talked to actually somebody that went down to Mexico to do, like a. Think it was Kiwassa retreat or something. Ayahuasca retreat. Sorry. A lot of the times what they were doing, and this was all veterans. And he was telling me that a lot of the. The sessions were literally just them being around each other in a circle, but there wasn't any talking. It was just like a. How should we put this? Like a symbiotic type experience where everyone has their own demons that they've been through, and it almost creates an amalgam of one where everyone kind of focuses in on. It's. I'm. I apologize. I'm butchering what he told me, but I have. I've never been to that. So I. But the experience that he told me was, is literally just a magnified version of, you know, me going to my buddy's house and sitting in the garage, you know, with three or four of us just kind of sitting there and kind of doing the whole King Hill. Yep. Mm. You know, type thing, you know, and. But there's so much benefit to that. And it's seems like. Like a joke, but it really does because there is no need for words. Everyone does understand, you know, if you know, your favorite team loses you, no one needs to ask what's wrong? You know what I mean? Everyone just watched the game. They game sucked. You know, I want guys to just. It's kind of like, you know, that the times where you had a shit day in jiu jitsu, windows are rolled down, no music, just driving, just kind of like the whole time everyone's been through that. Everyone understands that, you know, so there really isn't a necessity to talk about it, and everyone understands it. And I think the more traumatic experiences that you've been through, especially with people that had similar. And here's the strange part. Trauma is trauma. Whether someone had, you know, childhood trauma or as an adult, like a sexual abuse trauma, or, you know, whether it be in the military as deployment and seeing some horrible things, doing some horrible things, it. It's still that same line that. That attaches everybody, and it doesn't matter. And I think that's one of the hard things for a lot of people to accept is. And this is the thing saying I was going through was, you know, why are you feeling this bad? This person had it so much worse. At first I was that guy. Then I couldn't stand that guy, you know, like. Because I was like, I've been through so much worse than you have. And then I started realizing, like, how stupid of, you know, I was to say that. Because to them, in their life, that was the highest amount of trauma that they've experienced in their life. And same to mine. So there is no comparison. It's just the highest that they've felt. So there shouldn't be any judgment on that. And that was my first group session. That's exactly what I did. And I was 100% in the wrong.

I found that oftentimes when I do the comparison, it is that I am. I'm scared. And I'm trying to protect it, like, and just set myself apart from somebody else. Because connecting with someone and when you're in pain or they're in pain, truly connecting and being there with Someone that's one of the hardest things to do, you know, and if I go, I'm not like you, then I don't have to deal with my feelings. And maybe I'm full of shit, Olivia. Check me on that. But generally, I have found that my responses to emotions is almost always indicative of what my relationship with them is like. So we did one on Crying in Jiu Jitsu, and I got pissed at a girl for being upset and crying by the man. I'm like, what are you doing? You're supposed to do this in a locker room when no one's looking. And then I realized, oh, this is my relationship with how, when I've been crying and upset, you know, and how I've regarded myself or how others have regarded me. And when you see someone in pain, I, I, yeah, just to reiterate, I often found how I respond is how I'm feeling about my own pain in that moment. And, yeah, that's just it. That was my rambling.

Yeah. And I, I think, too, like, you talked about, like, the situation that happened in the hospital of that sense of waking up and not knowing where you were and feeling like you're back and everything is danger. We've talked about this in other episodes, but the body really does remember and hold onto those things. And when you've experienced trauma, when you have a triggering event like that, your body is responding as if it's happening in the present moment, not that it's a memory. And so I think that applies to so many of these situations, too, like, where if you're in a group setting and other people are talking about traumas, that might not be similar to yours, but maybe at that point felt like, to you, like, this isn't as bad. Why are you complaining? That's also probably your body's response to, like, if you were back in that setting and anyone around you had started talking about that or showing that quote, unquote weakness, that is going to be a sign of, like, no, you need to stop. Like, you can't be saying this. Like, this is dangerous for you to be admitting this. I imagine it's really hard to transition into, like, okay, we can talk about this and it's okay, or, like, we can just sit with our feelings and not say anything. And that's not dangerous anymore. That takes time for your body to no longer feel unsafe. And so I think there's such a huge role that that plays where people talking about, like said earlier, I feel too broken to be fixed. A lot of times what it Is. Is that the environment you were in, you are not broken. You were exactly what you needed to be in that environment at that time to survive. And then now you're plopped into another environment that has totally different rules. And it's like, okay, why does everyone else know the rules and I don't? I'm on a totally different set of rules and none of this is working. And so I think that's why there's such value and being around people who've been through what you've been through, or at least something similar, because you don't need to talk, because you all have the same rulebook, right? Like, you all know what things have happened, what you've been through. And sometimes it is enough to just sit in a space with other people and no one is looking away from each other's pain. You don't have to talk about it. You don't have to get into the gory details of what happened to you or me. But you can just be in that space and be like, we all know what we've been through and, and we're not going to pretend it didn't happen. We're not going to act like we're fine, like, we're just going to be here. And I think that is such an important thing, especially for people who don't always have access to higher mental health care. Just being around people who get it can truly be life changing, especially in those situations.

Yeah. For me, my group therapy session went differently. Where it was nice just to be around other depressed, suicidal people. In a sense, it was like, oh, I don't have to pretend to be okay. And when I say this and that, you understand exactly where I'm coming from. And there's something extremely healing about that.

You're not alone.

Yeah, that's one of the most crucial things of just being human. It's how I say it's what drives the darkness away, is just to know that you're not alone in this. And I'm happy that we're able to share these stories and connect. I think one of the things I think, especially men, and let me know if I'm obvious, they think therapy is always about talking. And even me, where I'm like, I don't want to talk about my stuff. And it doesn't always have to be, you know, you can just sit there. Olivia, I'm sure has had people just sit in silence and just do their thing. And just. What I'd like for people to know is whatever healing space you seek, ideally it just makes you feel seen and understood and that you can be your messy self in that moment. And so if it's all right with you guys, I know we've got a bit of time left. So my first note, and it was just something I had noticed, is that when Joey came in and you were getting to know him, right? You had pages of notes and you wrote them, you know, you scrapped a bunch. You maintain this wonderful sense of almost curiosity and understanding and meeting him where he is. And I've found that so many people, if not all people, they're so capable of doing that to others, but not for themselves. And this is my own random aside, is that I was learning to garden recently and I was getting really into plants and I get obsessive and I studied and figured out exactly what it takes for them to thrive. Thing is, I was starving myself of sleep, food, any sort of social connection. And I'm like, I don't need that shit. Why do I need. And eventually there was a moment where I'm like, wait, I'm obviously capable of learning what it takes to, to make these plants thrive. Why can I not apply that to myself? So that's just my little start off point. And if you guys want to get.

Into it, yeah, I think that's a really common experience of being able to see the point when it's other things, but then when it's yourself, it's so easy to not do it. As a therapist, there's a lot of times people will assume like, oh, well, you must have your shit together and you must deal with all these things well. And I'm like, not even a bit. Yes, I have a lot of tools that I know will be helpful, but that doesn't mean it's easy to act on them. And so I think that's something too, that people really beat themselves up over. Why can't I figure this out? I know this is the right thing to do, or I know I should be doing this, but it's the same thing as saying, well, in jiu jitsu, I. I know how to do this move. It doesn't mean you're going to be able to hit it every time in competition because there's 8 million other factors that are playing a role. So I think it's something that such a universal experience of just because you know something is helpful doesn't mean you're going to be able to act on it. And that there's so many other things that, like, play a big role there.

I thought that was a Great example, though, because you need light photosynthesis for each grows. But you were spending all your time indoors. You know, you need resting, like, all these things. That's. That's a brilliant analogy, though, looking back again, I think that's one of the main reasons, you know, coupled with what I was doing is not just a distraction, but I think that's one of the main reasons why I was branching off and doing jiu jitsu and strongman and powerlifting and Olympic weightlifting, CrossFit and all these things is because I didn't want any of those gaps of time in there. And I think a lot of it came when, okay, so when you spend your whole life being bullied, and then you. You make that transformation, you make that change, you know, and you build yourself up to the point where it was almost detrimental hearing on a consistent basis how much of a badass you are, you know, and how much everyone looks up to you. And. And I'm talking about, you know, I was getting messages from people in, you know, England and, you know, Spain and all these things like, oh, you're such a badass. You know, you're doing all these different things. It's so cool, you know, why would I ever want to go back and say that there's something. There's something wrong with me now? You know what I mean? I build myself up to the point where I'm, you know, I'm not being picked on. I'm not bullied. I'm not, you know, I'm not weak. I'm. I'm strong now, you know, and now that there's, you know, I have an issue. Why would I ever want to make that public, you know, and let people know that I have a problem or, you know, I have the weakness, you know, I'm weak at that because I can't figure out what's going on in my own head. And hearing that more and more, and especially the more I competed, the better I was doing. Everyone's like, such a badass. Oh, my God, the guy's like a monster. He's a beast. Blah, blah, blah. Every time I heard that, it made things worse because I didn't want to disassociate myself from that character that I had built for myself, you know, and regardless of what the consequences were, I just wanted to maintain that. And again, more that I heard that, that was, you know, more of like a reminder, like, you know, stay strong, you know, don't be weak. And it was a constant reminder, you know, to, you know, like an inspiration to stay, lack of better terms, ignorant. What you don't know can't hurt you. Right? So I think that was one of the big things was I just. I didn't want to. I didn't ever want to be that. That person again that was weak and, you know, that was being bullied. And so I came up with this inadvertently, a Persona following the things I like to do of being, like, now, badass and everything else. But I think that was one of the big reasons why the very first person that talked to me about coming forward with that was, like, in 2011, years before I actually done it. His name was Clint Bruce. He was a SEAL with SEAL Team 5. And the things that he said really resonated, like, you know, you're such a badass, and I know that you're going through some issues, and I denied this up and down to him. I know a lot of people with that, but that's me. That's not me. I know people. I'm sure I can help them out, but it's. It's not me. But, you know, I'm sure you can have that mistake a lot, you know, but not me. Not me. Everyone else, yes, not me. But that stuck with me. And to this day, it still stuck with it the entire conversation. You know, you could really help out a lot of people, letting people know that it's okay to get therapy, it's okay to get help, it's okay to be honest with yourself and say, I have a problem I need to fix. If you don't have an understanding of the problem, how can you fix it? And that really resonated. I'm really glad that I had that conversation with him. I'm really glad I got to thank him for it, too. That was a big thing.

Yeah. That's just such a thing that across different reasons for why people would say that, that happens. A lot of being told, oh, you're so strong. Nothing phases you. You're such a badass. How do you do it? All this, like, that feels really good at first, and then you realize that it's so isolating because you don't get to be human. You don't get to fail. You don't get to make mistakes or show any weakness because you have been put in this box of, like, you have it together. You are stronger than us. And that makes such a divide that, like, you don't get any support. Then no one ever helps you because they think that you've got it all figured out. And I think that's something that on a way different level. Like, not on a physical strength way, but that was often said to me growing up and even still of like, oh, you're so strong. I never have to worry about you because I know you're going to be able to make it through. And I used to take such pride in that until I realized, like, why aren't you worried about me? Why isn't anybody helping me? And it didn't allow me to be human. And I finally was able to realize, and it's still hard to execute, but I finally came to this realization that, like, I don't want to be on this pedestal of strength. Like, I want to be on the ground with everyone else being human, being allowed to fuck up and, like, not being held to a different standard, especially for special.

For you're literally held to a different standard. And I. One of my questions was that I think that the title, the Special Forces, there's this whole badass, you know, aura that everyone assigns to you. And like Olivia was describing it, I imagine it's isolating. And also I just completely resonate with. There's so much that I have done and accomplished that is in response to never wanting to feel like that scared, bullied girl who was being bullied at school and the shit beaten out of her. Every. Like every night we think that we're helping and making ourselves stronger, but it is ignoring a huge need that we have. And I think about it like, there's plenty of jiu jitsu, black belts, champs that have ignored one aspect of their game just for so long because they don't want to work on it. It is uncomfortable, for example, learning to defend your guard on your bad side, so to speak. No one likes doing that. And the thing is, is that life one day will pass on the other side. And you go, I have nothing to answer for this. And. And especially like in life and jiu jitsu is, the higher up you go in those levels, the smaller the margins are.

On that point, though, the weird thing was at the height of, like, when I was competing at an international level, I remember I took second at Europeans and I read the post that I actually put up there on Facebook and literally opened up with a heavy heart. You know, I took second place. I was so disappointed in myself. You can look at the pictures, everyone's smiling up there at third place. Got a big smile they made on the podium. You know, 68 people in our division, excuse me, 18 people in our division. But it was the largest tournament in the world at the time. There was like 3,000 people there, trained my ass off for it. And because I didn't one, I failed. I think one of the most disappointing parts about that, you know, my dad was. Was there. He flew into Portugal to watch me. My mom was there too. And I just remember my dad, like, going around telling, you know, everyone now he's a champ. He's a champ. You know, he did great. You know, everything else. And I kept. I was like, dad, I didn't win. You know, stop correcting me on that. Because I couldn't see success from what I was thinking. It was a failure. And that was the. The strange part is that the time that I literally hit the lowest point of my life was at the highest point of my competition career. And everything Olympic, lifting, everything else is because I use that as a distraction to get. To get up. And everything else is dropping down at the same time. And that was the same timeframe that I hit rock bottom. So that perception that, you know, everything is fine. I know it's strange, but the people that I know, and I can't speak for everybody, but the people that I know, I don't check on them when they don't post things. I check on them when they post a lot because I had that same thing. Like, I don't want people to talk to me because I'm going through some. So I just flood this. Yeah, I'm having a great time doing this, doing that, blah, blah, blah. This is awesome. Because I don't want people to know. And it's a mask that you wear that doesn't become a mask that you can take on and put on, you know, take off anymore. It just becomes permanent. And that is what I feel drags you down the most if you can't pull away from that and recognize it.

Yeah. And I think that's the case for so many things where, you know. And in your case, obviously, it was extreme of. And it was true when you were in that field of, like, you have no choice but to succeed, and there is no second place. And so having that mindset and then going back into the regular world and not being able to enjoy or take pride in anything if it's not perfect is so damaging and keeps you stuck in that box. Like you said of, it wasn't exactly what I wanted or it wasn't what I was shooting for. So that means I failed. And I think that's something that, for a variety of reasons and coming from different backgrounds, people get stuck in that sense of I have to do things perfectly and there's just no humanity in that. And it's obviously not as simple as just like, we'll just change your mindset. You should be comfortable with failing. It's so much harder than that when you're coming from a role that it wasn't allowed. And I just think it's something that as a society, I'm hoping we move more towards just accepting mistakes and especially allowing people to fail in practice, because that gives you the opportunity to learn the skills and develop the tools so that when it comes time where it really does matter, you're gonna have so much more confidence and so many more skills to navigate the hard things. But it's just, there's so much that has to change for that to really be accepted, I think.

And for me, perfection was expected. That is your baseline. And I had to be something. Regardless of how I felt inside. I had to become someone in order to simply survive. It is tough. And when it gets reinforced and encouraged by society, by your team, by everyone, Right. It can leave you feeling really trapped. But Olivia put it perfectly, having a space where you can actually giving yourself the space where you can fuck up and just be human and do the subtle work of, am I giving myself grace or is this complacency? Because I imagine for most hard, charging guys, they often seem identical, but they're not. You know, I'm like, am I taking a rest day or am I just being a lazy piece of.

And nobody cares. Work harder.

Exactly. And it's learning to see the subtle stuff. Because I compare everything to Jiu Jitsu, that, that's where the invisible Jiu Jitsu is kind of where it's at, that very subtle minute stuff, that's where you gain the momentum. That's where a lot of mistakes are made. Right. It's in that, those in between tiny moments, not the big flashy stuff. And so we're gonna wrap this up. If you have any thoughts, any, just give, let us know where people can reach you. And this was really remarkable. And there's so much here. I, I, I'm down to do another one one of these days. And we can get more into, you know, Jiu Jitsu and therapy. We can get more into whatever, actually. But I, I really enjoyed this. This was such a wonderful deep dive. So, yeah, you wanna take the floor?

Alan, thank you for what you do, you know, bring this up. I think one of the biggest things is, you know, if people don't know about it, they can't, can't do anything about it. So you Know, the more that we normalize this, the faster that we can get people to understand that it's okay to actually seek help for yourself and take that time for yourself. So anytime that I could be of help in support of any way in this, please reach out. I think it's one of the most detrimental things that this society is going through, especially, I mean, 20 years of war, you know, not just with veterans, but the way it affects their families as well and the next generation, how it's going to affect their kids. We're going to have an influx of even more cases coming up soon, and the last thing you need to do is suppress that, hide it, or dismiss it as a lot of the things have been going the last 10 years, in the last decade or so. Please, anytime. Thank you so much.

The goal is not to always be soft and always be calm and that you can't also access your strength. The goal is to be able to flow more easily through states of calm to stress and back. And so I think going back into the metaphor you use of, like, it felt like the mask got stuck on, sometimes you need to wear that mask, right? Like, sometimes we do need to bracket our emotions and really be hard. And so I think it's more about just learning. Like, okay, I don't want to have that stuck on, but I want to be able to learn when to put it on and when to take it off. And so thank you for taking it off for us today because I know that's a really hard thing to do, and I think it's hard to even put into words how impactful it is for people to hear the voice of someone who has been through it. And so we really appreciate that. And that concludes this episode of Therapy is My Therapy. If you enjoyed today's episode, please consider subscribing so you never miss an update. Once again, thanks for tuning in. The content discussed on this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only and does not act as a replacement for therapy. Although we may share tools that have worked for us and talk about about symptoms that we've experienced, it is not meant to be used for diagnostic purposes and does not constitute medical advice.