Episode 15 – Combat, Based ft. Alan Shebarro | Part 1

If I came forward at that time and I said I had mental health issues, they're like, well, you look fine, you're in great shape. That imposter syndrome, you know, was kicking in big time.

Welcome to Therapy is My Therapy, a podcast where licensed counselor Olivia, an unlicensed client, Tanya, delve deep into real and raw conversations in order to demystify what really happens in that 50 minute hour. Heads up. This podcast contains strong language and sensitive topics related to mental health.

Hey everyone, it's Tanya. In part one of this episode, we sit down with Alan Shabarrow, who's a Special Forces veteran and BJJ black belt, and talk about his post service journey towards finding both mental health, healing and purpose. Alan reveals when he realized that he carried mental scars from serving overseas and how they impacted his daily life. Additionally, we talk about how veterans face a particular set of challenges when it comes to reaching out for help. Things such as how their asset or liability mentality works for the battlefield, but not so much in real life. How they may struggle to feel understood by civilians, and even how the mantle of being Special Forces can be a crushing weight for those who are struggling with their mental health. Above all, we hope this podcast gives insight to those who serve their country and to echoes Alan's words, to seek help sooner. Enjoy the episode.

Yeah, so we're really excited to have you on today. So if you kind of want to just get started by giving us a little elevator speech of who you are, what you do, what's bringing you here, what you want to talk about.

Name is Alan Shabarro. I currently am a Jiu Jitsu coach at my own gym, Combat Base Texas in McKinney. I was with 3rd Special Forces Group from 2006 till 2010, 20th Group, 19th Group as well. Did three tours in Iraq and once I got out, recognized after a few years some of the indications of having some mental health issues. And that kind of drove me to starting the foundation for combat disabled veterans using Jiu Jitsu as a form of therapy through We Defy foundation in a nutshell.

So I'd say our first segment is I guess, the context of what led you to realize that you needed help. So however much detail that you feel comfortable in going into about the start of your mental health journey, or at least what led up to the watershed.

Moment, looking back, I realized how long I waited trying to suppress the issue that I had, I didn't want to accept that was one of the big things. You know, looking back that if I had the ability to give Myself advice would have been years prior to actually seek help. The problem was that the stigma that was attached to it, especially in the special operations community 15, 20 years ago, was very, I mean, you were pretty much ostracized if you had any indication of that or came out for that. And I understand that the possibility of danger that it could present in an operational environment, having these issues, especially not knowing what it is, just recognizing that something's wrong. But the way that, that it was handled back then was literally just remove you from your team, remove you from your company, remove you from where you're at, and basically you're at a desk job. So it was one of those things where even if you had an issue that you would ignore it or suppress it as best you can to make sure that you came across normal because everything that you work toward would be stripped away instantly and there wouldn't be any going back. That was pretty much one of the biggest fears for pretty much everyone, myself included. When I got out, I maintained that mentality and just kept telling myself, you know, I can, I can lift, I can train, I can, you know, distractions. And this just compounded everything because the more that I worked out, okay, even more detail when I got out, I had one plan, I had one plan and one plan, and I opened up a school, make it, and, and that was it. I didn't have a plan B, I didn't have anything else. So I had about 42 grand saved up for all the deployments I was going to put into this. Found a place, didn't want any distractions or anything else or any of the money that I had saved up going anywhere else. Ended up sleeping at the gym for about 18 months just to make sure it was a success. The amount of stress that I was going through there because I've never owned a business, I've never owned a gym. I've never been completely dependent on my own responsibility basically of owning a business to survive. And it was daunting. It really was. I would lose sleep, I already had issues. And this added onto it the stress of opening a brand new business with even more barriers, you know, added to it that someone else normally would. When I first got out, I did everything from reading, you know, Small Business for Dummies, SEO for Dummies, dummy, dummy dummies, like all these other things. I had like a stack of books that I was reading because everything had changed. It wasn't door flyers anymore, it was Google Ads and the clicks and having to learn about any of that that was entirely new for me. So trying to catch up on that, trying to maintain a decent training schedule because I conflated the leadership role with a coach's role. And I felt he had to be a leader and a coach. And my mentality is always trying to be the best at everything. So I kind of kept pushing myself. Within a year of starting this, I didn't even recognize the pattern that I was building. But I knew that I needed to sleep and my mind was racing. Thousand miles an hour every night, you know, I wake up at four in the morning, get right on the computer, you know, and check to see how many hits that the website got. And then I would get everything ready for the 6:00am class and then teach that class, then a 9:00am class, then an 11:00 clock class, then the kids class, then the other fitness class or excuse me, then the other jiu jitsu class, then the other fitness class. And I was running everything myself. So they didn't have someone at the front door. I didn't have, you know, someone answering the calls and have someone run, running the credit cards, didn't have anyone else cleaning. So it was a one man show. So by the time I got done with everything, it was close to about midnight and I had to sleep. And so I started drinking. It wasn't even that much, I'll be honest. It wasn't like I was down in like a fifth of Jack or something. But I started out with a couple of beers, which I thought was harmless. My allergies were kicking in, so I had Benadryl. I found that was a good combination. So that worked. A couple months in, it was a few more beers to help that work and then a couple more Benadryl. And of course I have, you know, easy access to Ambien and still had plenty left over from birds. So I was taken. Within three years, I was probably taking like a six pack of beer, two Benadryl, Ambien, Percocet, just to fall asleep. And then I'd wake up, take 30 grams of Adderall, wash it down with a red bull, another 30 milligrams in the afternoon and another 30 milligrams in the evening. So it was constantly like 100 miles an hour heartbreak. And then into that, and before I knew it, it was. That was my regular routine. So my body wasn't healing, even though I, I was pushing it harder than I ever pushed it before. Doing Olympic Weightlifting, CrossFit, Powerlifting, Strongman, Jiu jitsu, all these things that I couldn't do. Before, I had the ability to do it now. So I rushed into that and not thinking about the consequences of my actions of not doing this properly. I wasn't training properly because I wasn't letting my body rest for the amount of times I was working out. And so my body was constantly breaking down. The physical aspect was a direct correlation to the mental aspect of it because I ignored what my body was telling me. I ignored, you know, all the. The red flags, or I would literally just suppress it entirely, say, I'll deal with it later type thing. And that's what led to me just hitting rock bottom physically. And then once my body started giving out and I wasn't able to perform, I wasn't able to move right. Every day felt worse than the day before. So I already knew that there was something wrong with me mentally. But by the time my body caught up, now everything is broken. And so this was the part where it's the hardest thing to explain for me, but I've managed to be able to articulate it in the best way possible is I was able to rationalize irrational thoughts. And that to me was. It was so deceiving. And I was able to do it so well that a negative thought spiraled into. I didn't have any. Or above maybe six or seven clicks on my website from that thought. It would be like, well, no one's going to do it tomorrow. It can be less. The day after, it's be less, even more. What's the point of doing this? I can't tell you how many nights that I had my hands on my head just pulling my hair, trying to figure out what am I doing? Why am I doing this? Why did I give up something that I was really good at to do this and fail at it? And so everything was negative, everything was a failure, Everything was it just a complete and utter breakdown of every positive mental aspect that I had. Everything was negative. And I rationalized it and I. And I was like, well, this, this, this isn't really, like, happening. No, no, no, it is. Because if you look at yesterday, there was only six clicks. Something so minimal just expanded into everything in my life. By 2015, I had a hernia that I had to get a surgery for. And when I woke up and they were taking me down the gurney and I didn't recognize where I was at. I was still heavily sedated. And I just remember spots of this. But my roommate, who was a firefighter at the time, kind of filled me in on everything that happened, but I didn't realize where I was at. All I saw was, you know, kind of being pushed down the hallway, and I had the scrubs, the hospital gown on, and there was some, you know, blood from the surgery and down there. And I saw that. And so I correlated hospital with an injury. I didn't see any of my teammates. And so automatically I thought I was back in Iraq or something that happened in there. And because I didn't see it in my team, immediately my mind went to. I killed them all for a mistake that I made. And I started to really panic, you know, just like, you know, where's. You know, where's Walker? Where's Todd? Where's Clay? I mean, I started mentioning people that had been dead for six, seven years already and not even recognizing that and taking responsibility for something that never even happened. And the nurses were trying to get me to calm down. And I started even getting more excited to the point where then I heard someone kind of chuckling very. Not. Not in any. I recognize this now. Wasn't, like, in a mean way, but there, you know, someone comes out from anesthesia, and they say some crazy things. But I took that as, like, very offensive. And I started getting really upset, and I just tried to kind of, like, undo myself, and they try to stop me on that. I grabbed one of the nurses, I pulled them over the gurney, and the other ones came in. Before I knew it, there was like, four or five nurses on me. And I just kept answering the same question. Where, you know, where are my guys at? You know, what. What happened? What did I do? And then my roommate came in, because you heard all the commotion that was going on in the hallway, and. And he just looks at me, goes, hey, man, they're outside. They're waiting outside. Just. They're all here. Just calm down. And immediately I just like, oh, okay. And just passed down. So when he was telling me about this, because the only part that I remember was, you know, looking down, seeing the blood, and then hearing the laughter. And I kind of went out after that. He was telling me about that. And I still remember the thoughts. I still remembered, you know, me blaming myself for something that never happened. So that was kind of the very first indication of me having, like, a. Because it was so real. Everything was so real. And I didn't quite understand, like, why am I thinking this? So I kind of shelf that. I didn't dismiss it entirely, but I did shelf it and just kind of like, okay, just maybe there's anesthesia situation. Stress all accumulated together during that time frame. Again, when I came out about a week later, right back to the same habits. And the thought process just. It multiplied from there before I knew it. I remember one night it was. Or the night, you know, I remember, you know, going through my, my computer, seeing that I was depleted, like all the money. I started kind of getting into debt. It wasn't even that much into debt. We're talking like three grand, you know what I mean? But it was huge, you know, I mean, and I was already cutting back as much as I could, and those irrational thoughts just crept up on me. And before I knew it, you know, I was a. I was a failure in jiu jitsu, you know, because I never won worlds and I never. I'm a failure at Olympic weightlifting because I only took second in nationals. I only, you know, I'm a failure at this because I didn't. So if I didn't reach the very top of what I was trying to achieve, I was an absolute failure. And I was able to rationalize that very well. By the time it hit me, you know, where I was thinking, you know, I'm a. Financially, I'm a failure. Business wise, I'm a failure physically, I'm a failure as an athlete, I'm a failure as a coach, I'm a failure as a businessman, failure. All those things wrapped up into that. It just, I felt like I gave this, you know, the best run that I could, and I failed at it. I honestly, like, I just remember looking down at the floor for about 30 minutes, you know, gun was in my lap and trying to figure out if this is the end of it. Should I just. Yeah, this is probably the best route. You know, I don't want to can here. You know, there isn't any other routes. I can't think of any other options. I'm not, I'm telling you guys this as a. I'm ashamed of my actions on this, but the one thing that did save my life was my. And rescued a dog. And when I had the gun in my hand and on my, on my leg, my dog kept coming over and kind of like scratching on me, you know, I kicked the shit out of him across the room, came right back, kept doing the same thing. I'm more ashamed of kicking my dog than I am about taking my life, to be honest with you. It's just the, the guilt, you know, for doing what I did to my dog because so Ranger was like, he was one of those. That one other species that literally understands you. He wasn't the dog to me. It was Actually, my friend and I literally could communicate with him. And that was the thing that I was just like. I think it was that the guilt itself is what kind of like broke me away from what I was doing to kind of like apologize to, you know, Ranger. But, you know, I shelf that, you know, put that aside. Sorry. The next day, went forward and. And started kind of looking into the different types of. I had tried group therapy before. I went twice. It didn't work for me. I thought it was my ego got the best of me. You know, they're like, you know, these people haven't been through anything that I have. You know, they're talking about this shit. They don't understand trauma. They don't understand that. They don't understand what I'm going through. They're not going to understand me. I can admit now that it was ego, but at the time, I still felt that I wasn't. That it wasn't going to be beneficial for me for group therapy. So I started looking to individual therapy. So the first person I went through, and I'm glad that he was honest, but the first session that I had, and I was telling him, like, you know, what is the type of trauma that you experienced? So I started telling them about some of the things in Iraq, some of the things, you know, I was going through. And I guess I picked the wrong one because he's like, that's kind of out of my specialty. I think this. He needs someone. So he referred me to somebody else. But again, because I was very sensitive about even going, I took it as someone not wanting to work with me and, like, a form of rejection. So, again, my ego got the best of me on that, too. And I was like, oh, I can figure this out myself. And I was very good at keeping myself distracted, but I wasn't even sure, like, what was working. I just knew that I felt better after I did Jiu Jitsu, you know, And I felt better than if I was lifting, than if I want. Because when I'm lifting, I'm focused on one thing for a split second. Everything else, I'm walking around changing weights. Everything else. You know, I have so much going through my head. But with Jiu Jitsu, there is no. The only time that you really can think is in between rounds, you know, something else. You can't think of anything while you're actually there or not. You're going to get mauled. So I was like, oh, I need distraction. I need distraction. That's what I need, you know, so. And Jiu Jitsu was providing that. And in comes Joey Bozick, who was a triple amputee, and he wanted to come in and get Jiu Jitsu lessons for his daughter. We started talking for a while. Come to find out that he was a vet, he was stationed at Fort Bragg as well. We started continuing. You know, the conversation lasted like an hour and a half. You know, it was supposed to last, like 10 minutes. You know, I asked him if he wanted to train every thought of it, and basically it said that the places that he had been to were more willing to take his money, but not to spend actual time with him, to actually learn how to modify the game for him. So, again, my mind thinking distractions. So I'm like, hey, I could take on another project. So I said, hey, I'll try. I've never done this before. Be patient with me. I'll be patient with you. So tried out one session, I had eight pages of notes, how to scrap six pages of it, front and back, you know, trying to understand where his balance is, how he. How he can move forward, how he, you know, goes back, the range of motion of his. The arm that does work, the muscle flaps over his legs, how long he can actually maintain pressure on there. So there was a lot of different things that, you know, variance that you had to adapt and manipulate certain positions to make it work for him. And that was huge for me because that gave me something entirely different that I was able to completely focus on, again through Jiu Jitsu. Now, I still wasn't comfortable enough coming forward to telling anybody, but I knew that if I can get this foundation off the ground, I could help other people like me utilizing Jiu Jitsu. And I was dead set that, you know, that was the way of doing it. But again, the stigma was still up ahead. And so I made. Well, we both talk about this. And he ended up kind of being the frontman for it, because no one's ever going to question a triple amputee and his injuries. If I came forward at that time and I said I had mental health issues, they're like, well, you look fine. You're in great shape. You're moving good. You know, you're. You're talking fine, you know, everything else. And so that, you know, imposter syndrome, you know, was kicking in big time. And I didn't realize until, you know, Ken therapist told me what it was. But I was really worried about that. I was really worried about being called out, like, oh, you know, there's nothing wrong with you. You know, it's in your head, just stop being sad, stop being depressed. Just, just get over it. And that would spiral me into just an absolute infuriating mood that would last for days. And I was trying to avoid that as much as possible. I didn't, I didn't really want to be in that position to be questioned. But before I knew it, I looked at the rates. That was 20, I think 29. 20, 20, 2020, yeah, but 20, 19, 2020. Before all the COVID started, 90% of the athletes that we had in wigify were because of mental issues, not physical. And that continued to grow to. Now we have over a thousand athletes through the program and 93% of them are mental health issues. And that in itself was, you know, I was able to kind of like, okay, I started this program because I had these issues, but we only focused on Joey's because of my ego and my fragile ego. And I'm okay to admit that, that I didn't want to come forward with it. And it wasn't until like 20, 20, 21 that I actually like, okay, this is something above my knowledge. I tried to self treat myself, you know, give myself some, you know, treatment and find my other ways. I've exhausted that. I can't figure this out. Let me get someone else's opinion because it was weird. I was. I'll tell you how I figured that out. Programming for yourself is never a good idea when you're lifting. You start out with a great, great idea. Hey, I need to do this, this and this. Yeah, I don't like this one so much. Take that one out. I'll put that because I like it. And so when you.

I feel personally attacked.

It just, It's a natural thing though. I'm good at squats, so guess what? I'll put squats in there. You know, I, I don't. Sled pulls are in there. I don't like those, but I need to do them. I'll do them later, you know, and you don't realize that there's so many different aspects of your life that you take the same approach to, you know, where, you know, I know I need that, but put this here. I like that that goes there. And that's actually when I realized that I was like, you know, I'm doing the same thing, you know, with the other aspects of my life than I am with the programming. And that was actually my kind of, okay, I need help. That's basically how I got there.

Long story short, for me, I was just laughing because I chose Japanese whiskey. But I was on a diet of Benadryl and whiskey to get to sleep for a while. Yeah. And caffeine to keep myself going. And I don't know about you, but I also didn't like sleeping because of the night terrors. I, you know, obviously didn't serve. But sleep was the special kind of fucked up when you. Even when I'm resting, I don't get a break because then I get hit with really bad memories. And you wake up just in a blind panic. So you described what happens when breaking brass finds out that you have mental health issues. But what do your teammates do? Is there a fear of. If you admit that you have an issue, then the men to the left and the right of you are worried whether or not they can rely on you? Because I wonder if that is one of those things that prevents a lot of people from getting help.

And I have to reiterate, it takes, you know, a year and a half at minimum to make it through the course. One of the most challenging courses in the world. And once you get there, you're literally starting over and you're trying to prove your worth, in a sense, for a very long time. I did three deployments, and I still got, you know, guys calling me a cherry, you know what I mean? Because at the time, they were, like, at number 11. So you're always proving yourself. You're always, you know, being tested. You're always being evaluated. And again, this is, like, the pinnacle of your career. The pinnacle at the time of, you know, my achievements. And the very last thing I wanted to do was let anybody down. The mentality is either you're an asset or you're a liability. There is no gray area. No one ever wanted to be a liability. And when something like that pops up, you know, even the mere rumor of it, you know, people get like, wait, what? Like, what did he do? You know, and it's concerning because it's unknown. And the more unknown it is, the more of a danger it becomes. So if someone knows that there's something wrong, but they don't know exactly what it is, I mean, I can understand that, you know, looking from an uneducated, untrained perspective, yeah, it's going to be a danger unless they get help for that and they can manage it and put it under control, I don't find that there's the same. You know, there might be. And again, I can't speak for everyone because the. The different types of PTS is just so broad, and everyone's brain pathways work different than Anybody else's. So it's very hard to narrow that down. So it is a complex situation where you're trying to decipher where are they going to be a danger to themselves or their team in an operational environment, should they take time off, should they stop entirely? And I understand that, all those perspectives, but I also now understand that it isn't like a deadlock, shut the door, you're done. It can be resolved to the point where you're going back to, you know, where you need to be mentally in order to be successful at what you're doing.

I mean, I imagine when you're in a role like that where there is no margin for error, right? It's you succeed or you die. There's such a fear of failure that it seems like any ounce of someone exhibiting panic or fear or anything else is viewed, like you said, as a liability. But if people don't learn what to do when they're failing in practice, then that's when they actually will fail when it matters. And I think that's something that seems like is missing, right? Of like anyone in that situation is going to have some semblance of panic because that's your body doing, doing the correct survival mode. And it seems like the only options that you're given are bury it or you don't get to be a part of this. So then, of course, when you got home, you didn't ever learn how to manage those feelings. It was, no, you can't have them at all. So you never learned the tools to work through them. And so of course you're going to go to the first thing that you learned, which is, okay, well, how do I bury this? Alcohol, drugs, right? Like anything else that will make it so the feeling goes away. But that obviously doesn't work long term. And so it makes so much sense that when that's the field that you're coming from, your mindset is going to be, well, I just have to survive and I have to succeed, there's not an option. And the second there was, like you said, the sense of I might be failing at this business, I might be failing at this. Instead of thinking like, okay, well, let me get creative about this. Let me try other options or use different skills. It was like, no, if this one way doesn't work, that must mean I'm out.

I find that a lot of people that I've met in special forces, military, police, so on and so forth, they engage in a very fast operational tempo. I have in neither none of those domains, but I used to do a lot of things in order to avoid feeling how shitty I felt. Like I would run, you know, five miles a day, lift for two hours, do this, that, and the other thing, work three jobs. And I never allowed any. Any time for myself to sit still, because if I did, I would feel that deep, gnawing sense of despair and hopelessness and not know what to do with it. And while I learned from my parents, who are immigrants, right, so they just work themselves to the bone. That's what you do. You don't have room for feelings. They don't matter. They get in the way. So you push those down. Except anger. You're allowed to express anger. That's the only one. And they expect excellence. And you just work. You work until you don't feel it anymore. And let me know if that resonates with perhaps the Special Forces. Alan?

Oh, yeah, big time. Big time.

Because there was absolutely no room for getting help and no room for even having a mindset that help was okay to ask for. Obviously, it took a very long time to get to that point. And then, like you said, trying to start therapy and having the first person that you tried be like, oh, this isn't in my scope of practice. And then trying group therapy. And it sounds like the group that you tried probably was not a great fit for you. Because the whole point of group therapy is to be in it with other people who have experienced what you have. Because the whole thing is that you're getting that sense of solidarity and that, okay, we've all been through this, we can have this space to talk about it. So it seems like those were really not great fits. And I don't think it had as much to do with your ego as it did with you probably were not given the right people. So I think my question would be, other than the systemic issue of the field of it being set in a way that you can't really ask for help, and it's viewed as a liability if you do. Other than that, which is really hard to change, what do you think would have made it so that you would have gotten help earlier? Is there anything anyone could have said or done for you or anything that would have made it feel like it was more of an option?

I think a lot of. And I'm okay admitting this now, I think a lot of it had to do with me. One of the biggest, most impactful things I remember. So one of my biggest influences in SF was a guy named Walker Booth. You know, third generation SF was. He's A legend in third group. I mean, by the time I met him, I think he Was on his 9th deployment. Had an eidetic memory. Literally could memorize first time looking at it and give you, you know, might not be able to read the language, but he could actually remember the words and pronounce them, you know, as he remembers reading them. But the guy was so good at his job, I just wanted to emulate him as as much as possible. And I remember he took over his own team after, I think, 11 years. Normally, it's like 15, 16 years before you do that. He did it so much sooner. And I remember him walking and him having a brace on the desk when he was walking away. And I was, you know, a little bit concerned. So. Hey, man, you good? He's like, yeah, just. I need to take my cocktail. And I just kind of blew that off. Kind of, like, chuckled. Yeah, yeah, the cocktail, whatever. I'm not sure what that meant, but come to find out, right before I deployed, I gave him a call, and I was telling him I'm heading to the tarmac. And he said that after I, you know, asked him about that, because there's a small conversation like, you know, stop being a dumbass, and if you're hurting, go get looked at. And I should have taken that as an indication. I just. I didn't even see it. But he went and got his back checked out. Come to find out, I mean, he was taking Percocet, Oxy, Motrin, and I mean, just that cocktail was done twice a day because he had a broken back. I mean, literally, his tailbone was. Was cracked. And he was on a HALO team, meaning, you know, the high altitude, low opening free fall, and so this high arch and all those jumps with weight, you know, so if you can imagine having a broken back, having to do that. And it got to that extent to where he was like, I am not giving up this position. I'll take what I need to take because I'm not losing my team. And I ignored the part for the longest time of him seeking help to see what was wrong. And I focused on the part where he would do anything he needs to do to make sure he stays with the team in operation. And that was the part that I remember. Like, I. I can't let this go. I can't slow down. I can't let this get away from me. I have to make this work. And the things that I'm doing don't even compare to having, like, a broken back and still doing that. What I should have focused on was the small part below where he got help to find out what was wrong so he could get better. Unfortunately, he. He ended up dying a few months later. But that always resonated. And it's that conversation that we had about, like, what was wrong. And him, you know, getting help didn't even surface up into my memory till just a few years ago, you know, and that was around the same time I was like, well, he did get help, you know, and then maybe I can do that too and, you know, and find that solution. So that, that was one of the bigger instances in that timeline that really helped me out. You know, these small little snippets that. That really helped.

It's so hard to seek help. One of the common questions that we ask the guests on here is the things that you tell yourself. And you've given us, you know, a really in depth look as to the things we tell ourselves to avoid seeking help. Right? And for me, it was, yeah, it wasn't that bad. They don't understand, I can just exercise and then I'll feel better. And one of the ones that you said that really resonated with me is, you look fine. Like, when I went to my doctor for medication, he. He told me, you're a healthy, young, pretty girl. Why are you sad? And this is my fucking doctor. And I'm like, well, if I knew that, I wouldn't be here. And, or actually, it doesn't matter, I might know why, and it still won't change the fact that I'm feeling this thing. But there's a lot of impediments to go seek help. And I'm really, I'm really glad that lesson, you know, you, you remembered it and that you can bring it up now because maybe someone else listening to this who is going through something similar can go, yeah, seeking help is the first step to the thing getting better.

Even if you grow up in a home where, like, therapy is encouraged and mental health is discussed and, like, you have all the right factors, it's still incredibly hard to do it for yourself. It's the same as, like anything when you're doing physical health, even if you grew up in a family of runners, like, running a marathon's gonna be hard. It's already tough. Then on top of that, if you are in an environment where the mindset is so stigmatized against it and that it's not just viewed as something unhelpful, it's viewed as something harmful, if you get help, you don't get your career anymore. If you need this, that means that your teammates can't rely on you. And that's such a harmful way to look at things that it makes total sense why anyone from any field that that's how it's viewed is going to be so resistant to getting help, because it's not going to feel like help until you're actually in it and are seeing the benefits it has. And that concludes this episode of Therapy Is My Therapy. If you enjoyed today's episode, please consider subscribing so you never miss an update. Once again, thanks for tuning in. The content discussed on this podcast is is for educational and entertainment purposes only and does not act as a replacement for therapy. Although we may share tools that have worked for us and talk about symptoms that we've experienced, it is not meant to be used for diagnostic purposes and does not constitute medical advice.